When Jesus said THIS...that pesky little word..

by doubtful 14 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  doubtful

  Due to haste, I don't have time to cite texts, but perhaps others can do that for me, assuming I don't get a chance to do later on this evening. But Jesus, when asked about his second coming and of the conclusion of the system of things, he listed a series of portents as we all know, which concluded with multiple celestial phenomena, which according to him, were to be visible to all, just like lighting from one end of the sky to the other.

  He then said that "THIS GENERATION", referring to HIS generation of THAT time, would by no means pass away? How do we know this? In every other instance in the New Testament when Jesus uses the expression "this generation", 100% of the time he is referring to the "wicked generation of his time". He was referring to his contemporaries.

  How else do we know Jesus meant for his words to apply to his immediate generation? Consider the following: Again, I don't have the texts, but am writing from memory:

  • He said his disciples would by no means complete the circut of Judea and Samaria before his return
  • He said some of his disciples then living would by no means taste death, indicating that the rapture would take place in the 1st century
  • He told one of the Jewish religious leaders that HE PERSONALLY would witness his return as a Heavenly King

  Judging by the Apostolic epistles of the 1st century, it would also seem that 1st century Christians were expecting his second coming as something imminent. "All the more so as we behold the day drawing nearer", and I'm sure there are more scriptures I can't remember at the moment which indicate a sense of urgent expectation.

  I think Christians in the following centuries suffered a big let down when the prophecies failed to come true, so they began to rationalize them away as "misunderstandings" or errors in interpretation, very much like the Watchtower's copyrighted term of "new light". They eventually gave up on preaching the "Kingdom" and began to look within, as the church being the representation of God's kingdom on earth. This is remarkably similar to what the Watchtower says about their "Christian Congregation". Having grown weary of waiting for "Paradise" decade after decade, generation after generation, they have begun to console themselves with the idea that they're already in Paradise. The organization is likened to a "spiritual paradise".

  Watchtower has also resurrected the idea of the second coming being iminent long after most of Christianity had entirely given up on defending the failed prophecies and discarded the idea all together.

  Can any Christian honestly look at the prophecies of Jesus objectively, without attempting to twist their meaning, and sincerely say his prophecies did not go unfullfilled?
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  ProdigalSon

  All the Apostles and disciples expected Jesus to return within that generation, in the first century. The Apocalypse begins with Jesus saying, "I am coming quickly". It didn't happen. Why?

  Jesus arrived at the beginning of a new age, attempting to awaken Christ consciousness. The Jewish leaders, and the Roman Empire simply wouldn't allow it. They weren't giving up their status quo. The dark cabal stamped out the attempt. Apocalypse delayed 2,000 years.

  So I wouldn't exactly say that the prophecies were "false", as the intent was there. But what this shows is that prophecy is not cast in stone, even if it comes from the "Son of God". It depends on free will and human consciousness to make it materialize.
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  Lily Pie

  The popular opinion is this. That Mark 13 is prophetically telling of two events that will happen in the future. The first is the second coming of Jesus Christ. The Second is the destruction of the temple in Jeruselum in 70AD. There are similarities between the two events. ?

  note "Heaven and earth will disappear, but my words will not disappear." A reminder that despite the difficulties of understanding this we should hold fast that God will do what he said he will do.

  My study bible says - "This Generation" (or this age, or this nation) was to witness the fulfillment of these events. That generation did witness the destruction of Jersusalem. "

  Those who want to intepret it as applying to the second coming need to see it this way "It could refer to the continued existence of the Jewish people, the whole human race, the Christian Community, or the lat generation of the end of time."

  I have read somewhere that this is the most embarrassing set of scriptures in the bible for Christians. ?? But I disagree. We measure these things by our time, presuming that we see things the same way God sees them.

  Mainstream Christians still believe that Jesus is coming, "that every eye will see" him decend. Strangely they feel it is imminent, and long for it because they want to hang out with Jesus. They also believe as, many of the reformationists did in the 15th century that part of the Kingdom of God is already with us. It is part of the "already here, but yet to come." In my opinion, I may be wrong, this is more driven by the spiritual revival than the fear of failed prophecy. Since Christians have God in them and have the supernatural power of Christ, it is natural to feel Gods blessings in thier life and thus feel as if they are already taking part in the fruits of Gods promised Kingdom.

  I hope I have contributed something useful.

  LilyPie
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  Mat

  What I think we read in these examples is a then day equivalent of a Jehovah's Witness -like cult trying to give their followers a sense of urgency by attributing an imminent prophesy to God's "Word".

  It's interesting that Matthew and Mark seem to use the word to mean an imminent end, Luke seems to be aware of successive generations (Luke 1:48,50), while John doesn't seem to use the word at all. :

  http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/genea.html

  It suggests that Matthew and Mark were written shortly before the fall of Jerusalem, while Luke may have been written later, and John definitely later.

  Whether there was a Jesus to whom the words are ascribed is an other issue.
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  transhuman68

  LOL. You are right, doubtful. Almost all the scriptures in Matthew that mention 'generation' also have the words 'vipers' 'wicked' 'faithless' 'adulterous' etc in them.

  That's a poke in the eye for the WTS!
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  Aussie Oz

  So I wouldn't exactly say that the prophecies were "false", as the intent was there

  The road to hell is paved with good intentions...(author is disputed)

  They weren't giving up their status quo. The dark cabal stamped out the attempt. Apocalypse delayed 2,000 years.

  So mere mortals can thwart the plan of almighty god and his son?

  I beleive that prophecy whether fullfilled or not, or written after the event or not, had its application then. That it is merely desperation to apply it to now. Over zealous desire to see some relief from a perceived evil world by taking sayings, prophecies, visions, halucinations and dreams and reapplying them to a modern world.

  If people can hope for a better future at the hand of an invisible saviour, they no longer have to do anything about their own or the worlds woes personaly. Just have faith, sit and wait it out.

  When figuring out a puzzle, often the simplest base answer is the right one.

  generation = then. simple and no theory, theology needed.

  oz
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  ProdigalSon

  So mere mortals can thwart the plans of Almighty God and his son?

  Yep, that's what I'm saying, because we are ALL sons of God and we were given free will. If God decides everything for us, we don't have free will.

  I know I sound like a broken record, but the Bible is merely telling us the version of God and Jesus that the Roman Church wanted us to believe. But right in the scriptures we have Jesus saying "you are gods", "you will do things greater than these", and "if you have faith the size of a mustard grain, you can tell this mountain to transfer from here to there, and it will transfer".

  The truth is that God broke up his spirit, his consciousness, his "soul" into a gazillion pieces and distributed it among everyone. Even plants animals and rocks have a portion of it. The reason? He was lonely, and wanted to share his love.

  "Christ" in the Bible means "anointed one". The Watchtower claims 144,000 of such ones. Why is this then so hard to believe? Most Bible believers even on this forum have realized that to be in the Body of Christ a person must be "anointed".

  Quite astonishing that us mere lowlife mortal sinners can be spoken of in such a way by the "One and Only" Son of God.
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  Mad Sweeney

  I'm with Mat.

  It is kind of ridiculous to think Jesus actually said any of it. Can YOU write a dead friend's speech from 20 years ago verbatim from memory?

  The Bible writers had an agenda just like any other writer does. They wrote based on what they could remember and how THEY thought it applied at the time they were writing. This doesn't even take into account the changes over the centuries or the writings rejected by the Catholic church.

  Are we near another end, another new beginning? If so, it isn't because of some ancient book. There is no fate but the one WE make, if I can steal some jargon from The Terminator films.
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  Terry

  Let's just say, for the sake of the discussion, that Jesus never made any prophetic statements at all. Okay?

  His disciples and apostles had the highest possible opinion of him because of the way he lived, spoke, treated people, etc.

  His followers were indoctrinated from birth (as Jews) to expect that, someday, a righteous political and religious leader (MESSIAH) would appear.

  They were eager for this Messiah to arrive. They were eager for Jesus to be that leader.

  His followers made the "leap of faith" and BELIEVED: Jesus was that MESSIAH.

  Are you following this?

  Okay, next step...

  The apostles and disciples created expectations about Jesus' status within their own community.

  They began stirring up hope and supporting that expectation. Word got out.

  Established religious leaders saw a disaster in this: the Romans would not tolerate a movement which threatened PAX ROMANA.

  At the same time the Jesus Movement was picking up momentum, the radical Sicarii (rebel jews) were fomenting rebellion against Rome.

  When the pot boiled over Jesus was arrested, judged and executed. Bim, Bam, Boom!

  Okay?

  Here is where the rubber meets the road. The disciples and apostles were like a jilted bride on her wedding day when the groom vanishes.

  WHY is this happening to me? What went wrong? How can I understand? THERE MUST BE AN EXPLANATION (that fits my belief.)

  The need to make sense of their shattered expectations was overwhelming to them.

  Brainstorming. Hypothesis. Guesswork.

  At some point, after Jerusalem itself was obliterated by the Roman armies, somebody started a rumor.

  The rumor helped people MAKE SENSE of the events that had devasted the existing belief system and JOINED the two events

  into a REASONABLE explanation.

  What possible explanation could account for it?

  This: JESUS HAD PREDICTED EVERYTHING IN ADVANCE--but--we just didn't UNDERSTAND at the time what he was telling us!

  The people who had listened to Jesus teach and who probably did NOT "get it" in the first place began retro-fitting certain statements inside

  their mind. "You know, when our Lord said "thus and so" he was probably trying to warn us..."

  No doubt, Jesus did say something. Something. But, not prophecy. More like a puzzling saying you had to think about.

  Jesus loved injecting parables and illustrations into his teaching. Mysterious and elusive.

  You could go away and think about it. Puzzle over it. Try to solve it on your own. It gave his teaching some real buzz.

  After the chaos of the death of Jesus and the destruction of the Temple......an explanation rose to the surface.

  JESUS WAS A PROPHET who FORETOLD all this would happen IN OUR GENERATION.

  The story got out. It was exciting. It explained everything....

  PLUS......

  It was probably a shadow of things yet to come!

  PRESTO! Jesus is actually going to RETURN and finish the job as Messiah.

  So....maybe he was more than a human.

  Maybe....just maybe.....he was....superhuman....or (gasp) DIVINE!!

  Anyway.....you get the point.

  Necessity is the mother of invention.
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  OnTheWayOut

  Gospels written after the fact with made-up stories wouldn't get it wrong. They wouldn't make up a prophecy that already expired.

  The stories meant that the temple and Judaism would be destroyed within "this" generation, the one alive at the supposed time of the words being spoken. That way, everyone could see how Jesus was a prophet back then. Afterall, what he supposedly said came true.

  Catholicism came and made it more than it was. Today, many many many unscrupulous religious leaders have perpetuated that belief.

  OR Jesus really said it and it only meant the temple and Judaism, and it really happened like he said. Still, religious leaders made it into something else.