The Gentile Times Reconsidered (page 34)

AnnOMaly

Umm, Spade, I think you've overlooked something important.

... Jeremiah 25:3-11

At the time when this was stated, Neb·u·chad·rez′zar, the king of Babylon represented supreme rulership.

"'The tree that you beheld, that grew great and became strong ... it is you, O king, because you have grown great and become strong, and your grandeur has grown great and reached to the heavens, and your rulership to the extremity of the earth. Daniel 4:20-22

That it why these nations (plural) was used instead of this nation, but the direct application of the prophecy was primarily concerned with the nation of Israel as they were the only nation that was completely subdued and taken into captivity.

At the time the prophecy of Jer. 25 was stated, it was the fourth year of king Jehoiakim, the first year of King Nebuchadnezzar. Context!

(Jeremiah 25:1-3) . . .The word that occurred to Jeremiah concerning all the people of Judah in the fourth year of Jehoi′akim the son of Josi′ah, the king of Judah, that is, the first year of Nebuchadrez′zar the king of Babylon; which Jeremiah the prophet spoke concerning all the people of Judah and concerning all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying:

"From the thirteenth year of Josi′ah the son of A′mon, the king of Judah, and down to this day, these twenty-three years the word of Jehovah has occurred to me. . . [etc.]

That would be 604 BCE (or 624 BCE, WT reckoning). Now, you seem to be connecting this time-frame with the Dan. 4 'tree dream,' where Nebuchadnezzar represents "supreme rulership." However, according to WTS doctrine, Nebuchadnezzar wasn't 'supreme ruler' in the 'tree dream' sense in his first year when Jeremiah gave the prophecy. Therefore, MeanMrMustard's points stand.

AnnOMaly

And to add, the nation of Israel wasn't the only nation to have been completely subdued - that's nonsense. E.g. Ashkelon got captured, reduced to heaps of rubble, the king captured, and loot plundered, etc. in Nebuchadnezzar's first year! But all the land and surrounding countries were subdued - the kings had to behave and submit to Babylon, paying their tribute as Babylon demanded ... or else have a fate like Ashkelon and later, Jerusalem.

See http://www.livius.org/cg-cm/chronicles/abc5/jerusalem.html

Spade

AnnOMaly, what was stated in reference to Daniel, about Neb·u·chad·rez′zar, the king of Babylon representing supreme rulership, simply means Babylon was the dominant world power after the destruction of Jerusalem and before domination from Medo-Persia (the silver breasts and arms of the image in the dream vision to Daniel). Jeremiah 25:3-11 had a parallel fulfillment to other nations while Babylon was the dominant world power. The specific dates when the words of Daniel were written have no bearing on 539 B.C.E as the year Cyrus overthrew Babylon and 537/538 B.C.E. as the year the Jews were released from captivity.

jonathan dough

Spade: Q: Considering Jehovah's thoughts through the prophet Jeremiah, who is Jehovah primary concerned with and who is his word against?

A: The nation of Israel.

Again, wrong. You are ignoring Jer 25:13 which directly contradicts you. The prophecy was directed to all the nations, not just Israel.

13 And I will bring in upon that land all my words that I have spoken against it, even all that is written in this book that Jeremiah has prophesied against all the nations.

AnnOMaly

AnnOMaly, what was stated in reference to Daniel, about Neb·u·chad·rez′zar, the king of Babylon representing supreme rulership, simply means Babylon was the dominant world power after the destruction of Jerusalem and before domination from Medo-Persia (the silver breasts and arms of the image in the dream vision to Daniel). Jeremiah 25:3-11 had a parallel fulfillment to other nations while Babylon was the dominant world power.

This makes no sense. Babylon was already the dominant 'world power' 20 or so years BEFORE Jerusalem was destroyed. Jer. 25 supports this. So does Jer. 27:1-7 - at least, if the correct reading at verse 1 is indeed 'Zedekiah' instead of 'Jehoiakim,' it shows that at least 10 or so years BEFORE Jerusalem's destruction (which was not a foregone conclusion, by the way! - read through the whole of that chapter) Jehovah had already given "all these lands" to the King of Babylon (v. 6). And according to Dan. 1:1, 2 (cp. 2 Chron. 36:5-7), Jerusalem was subjugated by Babylon early in Jehoiakim's reign, not long after the battle of Carchemish in 605 BCE (625, WT date).

Spade

This makes no sense. Babylon was already the dominant 'world power' 20 or so years BEFORE Jerusalem was destroyed.

This is what the Insight book says about it.

it-1 p. 134 Appointed Times of the Nations

The fact is evident that the key point of the vision is Jehovah God’s exercise of irresistible sovereignty in “the kingdom of mankind,” and this provides the guide to the full meaning of the vision. The tree is shown to have an application to Nebuchadnezzar, who at that point in history was the head of the dominant World Power, Babylon. Yet, prior to Nebuchadnezzar’s conquest of Jerusalem, the typical kingdom of God ruling out of that city was the agency by which Jehovah expressed his rightful sovereignty toward the earth. It thus constituted a divine block or impediment for Nebuchadnezzar in attaining his goal of world domination. By allowing that typical kingdom at Jerusalem to be overthrown, Jehovah permitted his own visible expression of sovereignty through the Davidic dynasty of kings to be cut down. The expression and exercise of world domination in “the kingdom of mankind,” unhindered by any representative kingdom of God, now passed into the hands of the Gentile nations. (La 1:5; 2:2, 16, 17) In the light of these facts “the tree” is seen to represent, beyond and above its application to Nebuchadnezzar, world sovereignty or domination by God’s arrangement.