Psac, how about the word 'prophet'?
Challenge to DJeggnog Regarding his Lies.
by Essan 209 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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PSacramento
Yeah, that's a good one too, or the word "Christ", since it means annointed in greek and there is only ONE that was God's annointed, I am curious as to the JW Dictionary of the word "christ" or annointed for that matter.
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isaacaustin
Psac, just remember that to be a prophet you have to specifically claim inspiration and specificaly claim that the message you have is directly from God. Further you must perform signs and wonders.
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Essan
Thanks for the support and the bumps people. This is indeed a cast iron case, completely proven, and it's bizarre to me to have people like DJ and Debator argue that black is white and even demand apologies from people who present undeniable facts. How do you reason with people like that? It's a very strange feeling. It's like all the rules of logic and truth have been ditched and they simply will not play on the "pitch' of reasonableness and honesty where everyone else is expected to play. Bizarre.
I'm not sure there is any way to deal with that. As some have said, perhaps the only real benefit is for onlookers.
I still hold some remote hope, even though I am monumentally irritated and exasperated by DJ, that he may have some shreds of honesty left and may acknowledge that he is referencing 'doctored' literature, from which Russell's failed predictions have been sneakily erased or rewritten, while Russell's original writings, right up to 1914 did indeed predict Christ's coming and all that entails. The problem is, I have been presenting these quotes and links to where this evidence can be found for over a week now, and DJ evidently doesn't bother to read or research them at all.
Does he care about the truth? Not enough to research it before making false claims, nor indeed after. Not so far. Is he just deeply confused and bewildered and so intently focused on playing the role of teacher and imagining he has nothing to learn that he's just continually missing the significance of the evidence and so attempts to rebut things he's ignorant of, just because rebuttal is his knee-jerk reaction?
I really don't know. We'll see.
Whatever, the fact is that Russell certainly did predict Christ's "Coming" for 1914, and a whole host of other things as has been proven repeatedly, all of which DJ still flatly denies.
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isaacaustin
Whatever, the fact is that Russell certainly did predict Christ's "Coming" for 1914, and a whole host of other things as has been proven repeatedly, all of which DJ still flatly denies.
My reply: That is undeniable. Even if we were to call these false teachings as opposed to false prophecies, it still begs the question of why Jesus would hen choose that group to represent his earthly affairs.
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Hadit
Wow - great thread! Awesome quotes all in one place to prove the dishonesty going on in this organization.
You have to be willfully ignorant to deny the lies and changes that have been made. It's a great thing for lurkers to see. If they truly are looking for answers this will help honest ones to really question things and have their eyes opened.
I can't wrap my head around the inspired by God bit (their reasoning of it). If this organization is NOT inspired by God then how are they chosen by God? What does that mean? On what authority do they lead people to everlasting life and the all encompassing truth? If their words are NOT prophesy, not inspired, then what on earth would anyone need them for? People can read their own Bible and they never would have been taken on this crazy rollercoaster ride in the first place! It's deception on a grand scale.
They point out mistakes of the Catholic Church and other churches of Christendom. They pick apart everything they say. They point out that they have made changes so they must not be led by God yet they do the same thing! At least some of the churches admit they made mistakes and apologize for them. I fail to see any apologies to people who put their entire lives on hold waiting for 1975. No apologies to people that they murdered during the ban on organ transplants, or people who are murdered because of the blood transfusion issue. How about the rapes and pedophilia issues? How about the murdered ones in Malawi? Shame on them! Just like the Bible says – blind guides leading the blind! Straining out the gnats and swallowing the camels.
How would a testimony hold up in a court of law where the person rewrote parts of their original story? What if the person claimed that their original story came from God? I do believe they would be found guilty. As guilty as the WTS is!
Sorry guys . . . back to the issue of rewriting history to cover their lies . . .
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Essan
Thanks Hadit, I hope it does serve some purpose.
I still hope that DJ researches the original literature from which the quotes he has been provided came and acknowledges what Russell actually taught before 1914. After having acknowledged he was wrong and that Russell did predict countless things for 1914, including the "Coming" of Christ, I hope he goes on to reflect on the fact that he has been lied to and deceived and is simply repeating those lies to others, here. How can anyone not care about being lied to? How can anyone excuse an Organization that does that? How can an Organization that makes such false predictions and then tries to hide it when they fail "qualify" for anything in God's eyes, except destruction?
DJ should have a lot to think about. But even if he doesn't want to give it thought, hopefully other questioning JW's who are reading will.
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Essan
If you go to this link:
http://www.a2z.org/wtarchive/archive.htm#russell
You will find a list of Russell's writings, including "The Time is At Hand", the book DJ and I were arguing about earlier. DJ has a "doctored" later edition from which all the references to Russell's predictions for 1914 and Christ's "Coming" have been sneakily removed or changed by the Society. Thus, DJ claims Russell never made such predictions. But if you click on the link for the 1st Edition of the 'Time is At Hand' you can scans of the original text and see what Russell actually said before he and the Society decided to re-write history to hide their embarrassing false and failed predictions. You can even right click (of Apple button and click for Mac) and download this book to search at your leisure.
I'd appreciate some help with this actually, as I'd like to find some more interesting quotes for DJ, showing exactly what Russell predicted for 1914!
I'll start with the following:
"We consider it an established truth that the final end of the Kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, will be accomplished by the end of A.D. 1914. Then the prayer of the Church, ever since her Lord took his departure - "Thy Kingdom Come" - will be answered: and under that wise and just administration, the whole earth will be filled with the glory of the Lord - with knowledge, and righteousness, and peace (Psa. 72:19; Isa. 6:3; Hab. 2:14); and the will of God shall be done "on earth as it is done in heaven"' - The Time is At Hand 1st Ed. p 99.
100%, cast iron, unequivocal, undeniable, irrefutable proof that Russell predicted Christ's "Coming" for 1914. How could the Kingdom "come", and it's will be done on earth, in 1914 without it's King having "Come"? It couldn't.
I'll see what else I can find.
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Essan
More:
"And the heirs of the of the heavenly kingdom must so continue, until the appointed time for them to reign together with Christ. During the time of trouble, closing this age, they will be exalted to power, but their "reign" of righteousness over the world can only date from 1914" The TIme is At Hand 1st Ed. p 81.
So, the anointed would begin their reign of 1000 years over the earth, with Christ, after the "time of trouble" or "Tribulation", and this Millennial reign "can only date from 1914".
So Russell is again here clearly saying what I've quoted him saying also elsewhere, that:
1. The Tribulation will be over by 1914: "1914... the great "time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation" will reach it's culmination and will end at that date" - p 78.
2. The anointed must all be with Christ to begin the Millenium with him as Kings by 1914: "Some time before the end of A.D. 1914 the last member of the divinely recognized Church of Christ...will be glorified with the head; because every member is to reign with Christ, being a joint-heir with him of the Kingdom, and it cannot be fully "set up" without every member" - p 77.
3. "Their reign of righteousness" over earth, with Christ. "can only date from A.D. 1914": "1914...at that date the Kingdom of God, for which our Lord taught us to pray, saying "Thy Kingdom Come," will have obtained full, universal control, and that it will the be "set up" or firmly established, in the earth." - p 77.
This couldn't really be a more explicit prediction that Christ's "Coming" would be in 1914. Even I'm feeling stupid now, having to keep posting this stuff. It's beyond obvious. And this is just from one book! I haven't even started referencing the other Studies in the Scriptures volumes of the Watchtowers from the time yet! DJ, if you don't get it now....well... see my OP.
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Quentin
Wish I had the time and felt like joining in, sadly I don't. Keep up the good work, it applies to both POV, it being one way lurkers can see both sides of the issue in able to decide for themselves.
I have for a long time believed Reniia, DJ, Deabtor, Alice- in.........along with others, are a group of non, or, fring jw's who have banded togather to argue the tower teachings for whatever reason. They have repeatedly been warned, told it is a df offence to be here, yet they do not defend or give explenation for doing so. Why? To me that is dis-honest in and of itself. Tells what motivates you to do so, since YOU go to GREAT lengths to defend the wt. A regular jw in good standing would not do so, for them it would be a waste of time. A simple explenation from YOU would give US a better understanding of what motivates you to BREAK a fundemental law of the f&ds. It is a thing I do not understand....