Challenge to DJeggnog Regarding his Lies.

by Essan 209 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  The Finger

  Djeggnog,

  On page 271 of the 1968 Watchtower it explained how naming of the animals by Adam "would have occupied only a brief time". The creation of Eve, "he would create Eve soon after Adam, perhaps just weeks or months later in the same year, 4026 BCE. After her creation, God's rest day, the seventh period, immediately followed."

  In the God's Eternal Purpose Now Triumphing, Page 51 "Evening" of Seventh Creative "Day" begins, 4026 BCE" we studied it 14th Jan. 1975.

  This seems to be suggesting that Eve WAS created in 4026 within weeks or months of Adam and so fitting it with the generation belief of the time and the seven thousand year long day belief it is difficult to not come to the conclusion that 1975 was going to be the End.

  Honesty about this stills seems to be lacking in the organization. This was one of the main points discussed with the Elder a few years ago that resulted in him talking badly of me from the platform. It was a point refered to by the last Elder who visited me at the outset of the conversation on the new understanding of the generation and how we wouldn't want to be like those in 1975 who were looking to dates and selfishly left. When in reality they stumbled over a false teaching.
• 

  Essan

  DJ, everything you just wrote is irrelevant to this topic.

  You said: "In both of these quotes, you contend that a kingdom cannot come withot its king, correct? Well, tell me this what happened when, in the year 1914, invisible to human eyes, the kingdom of God became established in the heavens, with Jesus actually coming into his kingdom, which event has been discerned by Christians?"

  Again I have to ask, are you really that stupid or is this another ham-fisted attempt at deceptive 'sleight of hand' to fool unwary readers?

  You know - because I and other showed you - that Russell taught that 1874 marked the beginning of Jesus Presence, and he never deviated from that view. So, when he ALSO predicted Jesus coming in 1914 - IN ADDITION to his having become PRESENT in 1874, he's not predicting the the same thing again! He is predicting something else, something more, beyond the Presence of 1874. He's predicting Christ and his Kingdom coming to rule in the earth and execute judgement in a way that is manifest to all mankind - as the quotes you were given explicitly said - rather than in a way that is discernible only to watchful Christians. You've read the quotes on the previous pages, I presume? So please don't try to pull the wool over anyones eyes. You claimed that Russell predicted neither a visible or invisible coming for 1914, so that is not relevant. He certainly predicted that the effects observed from Jesus coming in 1914 would be obvious to alll. Or do you think that Russell meant no one on earth but Bible Students would notice when, as he predicted:

  "the "‘battle of the great day of God Almighty’ (Rev. 16:14), will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth’s present rulership". - The Time Is at Hand (SS-2), 1907, p. 101

  The situation is almost entirely like the notions JW's hold today, except the dates and a few details are slightly different:

  - Russell taught that Jesus presence began in 1874 - The Society today teaches it began in 1914.

  - Russell predicted that Jesus would come to take rulership of the earth in 1914 - The Society likewise teaches Jesus will "soon" come to rule the earth.

  - Russell taught that this 1914 event would be obvious to all, or "manifiest" - So too, the Society claims this obvious supernatural event will occur "soon".

  It's that simple. What JW's now promise is coming "soon": the Tribulation, destruction of Babylon, Armageddon to reach it's climax, destruction of worldly governments, start of Christ's Millennial reign in the earth, the resurrection of the prophets of old - all of this, Russell predicted for 1914. You are likening Russell's view of 1914 to the JW's view of 1914, but that is deceptive. Russell's view of 1874 is like the modern JW's view of 1914, but Russell's view of 1914 is analogous to the modern JW's view of the imminent End.

  This has been proven many times over. It's beyond question. Yet you claimed Russell never predicted anything for 1914, never mind that Christ would come!

  I'm still waiting for you to acknowledge that Russell predicted countless things for 1914 including the coming of Christ and the Kingdom to be established in the earth, "on the ruins" of human institutions, the final glorification of all anointed to rule as heavenly Kings over the earth, with Christ, the termination of imperfect human rule, the resurrection of the ancient worthies and many, many other things.

  You denied all of that and you were totally wrong. You demanded apologies of me for stating such a thing. So where is your retraction? You said I was lying about what Russell's original text of "The Time is At Hand" said regarding 1914 and you insisted your altered post 1915 "damage-control" version was the "original book". All your claims were false. So where is your retraction and apology? I'm not interested in another page a irrelevant waffle, evasion and attempted deception from you.
• 

  peacedog

  This thread ought to be retitled, "DJeggnog exposed"...

  Every student of Watchtower history knows that Russell predicted the "parousia" for 1874 and the COMPLETE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE KINGDOM for 1914.

  Eggnog is not duped. He's a liar who doesn't care about truth. He won't be "reached" by anyone. His mission (like his cult masters) is to deceive people.

  His last post (and indeed all of his comments on this and other threads) demonstrates this clearly.

  Essan: Good on you for sticking with this and COMPLETELY exposing DJeggnog for what he is.
• 

  Essan

  Thanks PD.

  You gave the concise summation that I was struggling to formulate.

  Mission accomplished. And yet the funny thing is DJ does a far better job of exposing himself than any of us could do, in a similar manner in which the Society unwittingly exposes itself with it's own contradictory and self-condemnatory statements in it's literature.

  The best gift a debunker of the Society could ever be given in order to thoroughly expose them is access to all the Society's own literature. The best gift a debunker of a lying WT apologist like DJ could be given in order to expose him is to have him turn up and post as a showcase of his deception, evasion, distraction, lack of reason and complete disregard for the established facts.

  Thanks DJ. You're the gift that keeps on giving.
• 

  djeggnog

  @Essan:

  DJ, everything you just wrote is irrelevant to this topic.

  Ok.

  @djeggnog wrote:

  In both of these quotes, you contend that a kingdom cannot come without its king, correct? Well, tell me this what happened when, in the year 1914, invisible to human eyes, the kingdom of God became established in the heavens, with Jesus actually coming into his kingdom, which event has been discerned by Christians? You well know that from the beginning until January 1, 1939, the Watchtower had changed its banner from "And Herald of Christ's Presence," since Russell had, since 1874, considered Jesus' presence as having begun in 1874, to "Announcing Jehovah's Kingdom," in March 1, 1939, in acknowledgment of the fact that Jehovah had taken His "great power and begun ruling as king" representatively through His Son, Jesus Christ, in fulfillment of Revelation 11:17 when Jesus came into his kingdom in 1914.

  @Essan wrote:

  Again I have to ask, are you really that stupid or is this another ham-fisted attempt at deceptive 'sleight of hand' to fool unwary readers?

  Please answer the question:

  Tell me this what happened when, in the year 1914, invisible to human eyes, the kingdom of God became established in the heavens, with Jesus actually coming into his kingdom, which event has been discerned by Christians?

  If you do not have an answer or you feel uncomfortable answering this question, then you should not do so. This is not a "sleight of hand" on my part. What this is IMO is evasion on your part, an unwillingness to bring reasonableness to the table and a desire -- again on your part -- to obfuscate the issue that I am raising in response to your "interest" in Pastor Russell's beliefs as if those beliefs are relevant to Jehovah's Witnesses today. What's relevant, in my view, @Essan, is that you find a place to put this anger and bitterness that has you out here making an issue out of a non-issue when you know good and well that absolutely no human being can predict the future with any degree of accuracy. Jehovah is the true God; He is the only One that can accurately do so. No human is able to do so, and you know this is true, which is why you keep beating the proverbial horse here about what I call a non-issue regarding Russell.

  An entire chapter in the book you brought forward for consideration in this thread -- the Time is at Hand book -- is called "The Times of the Gentiles," and if one actually sits and reads this chapter without a predisposition to believe it to be a chapter that predicts a future event, then it will be clear that the language that Russell uses in this chapter alone provided only a supposition as to what will follow the end of these Gentile Times in 1914, but he leaves no doubt that he is convinced of the conviction that the date 1914 is a date that anyone can calculate for himself or herself being exactly 2,520 years after the Gentile Times began! He hopes that what he calls the "Gospel age" will end and the "Millennial age" will begin in 1914, but he doesn't pretend to know what's going to happen in 1914.

  In this chapter we present the Bible evidence proving that the full end of the times of the Gentiles, i.e., the full end of their lease of dominion, will be reached in A.D.: 1914; and that that date will see the disintegration of the rule of imperfect men. And be it observed, that if this is shown to be a fact firmly established by the Scriptures, it will prove Firstly....

  This is what Time is at Hand actually says, and specifically where we read the words --

  and that that date will see the disintegration of the rule of imperfect men.

  -- or instead should read the words --

  and that that date will be the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men.

  -- the point being made -- and I really don't want you to miss it, @Essan -- is that the year 1914 is when "the kingdom of the world" became "the kingdom of our Lord [Jehovah] and of his Christ [Jesus], and he will rule as king forever and ever," And the Time is at Hand book says "if this is shown to be a fact firmly established by the Scriptures," the operative word there being "if," in case you missed it, then "it will prove Firstly..., Secondly..., Thirdly...," and so forth. Russell writes "if" because we isn't able to predict what will occur when the Gentile Times had come to an end, but if what he had said "is shown to be a fact firmly established by the Scriptures," then blah, blah, blah. I the English language, the word "if" introduces a hypothetic clause conditioned on the conditions expressed being true. Get it?

  Jesus made the point in his prophecy at Matthew 24:3, 14, that it would be during his invisible presence as king that this good news of the kingdom of God, which is now established, would be "preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations" of Jehovah's Messianic kingdom by Christ Jesus and this very prophecy is being fulfilled today by Jehovah's Witnesses! We are, in fact, proclaiming to all that Christ is now present in Kingdom power and we make no bones about that! Jehovah had set a fixed time -- "the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men" -- a fixed time when "the disintegration of the rule of imperfect men" would come to an end, for Jesus has already conquered in heaven by stretching his rod of strength out against the chief enemy of God's Messianic Kingdom in casting Satan and his demons down to the earth, and thus cleansing the heavens of his rebellious spirit, but whose ouster had brought great woe to the earth, for Satan now knows that but "a short period of time" remains before his abyssing by Jesus. (Psalm 110:2; Revelation 12:9-12)

  The time for the Gentile nations' trampling God's Messianic Kingdom is over and now God's Messianic Kingdom is doing the trampling of these Gentiles nations whose rulership God had permitted until "the farthest limit," that is to say, at the full limit of the appointed times" to "gather all things together again in the Christ, ... the things on the earth." (Ephesians 1:10) Jehovah's Witnesses are the ones who, as ambassadors and envoys of the Messianic Kingdom, are announcing to all of the nations of the earth this incoming world government to which all now living must become reconciled as willing subjects, just as Jehovah's Witnesses are to it, for as the only rightly government that God has given authority since 1914 to take charge over the earth's affairs, it is important that all submit to the rulership of the Messianic Kingdom. (2 Corinthians 5:19, 20)

  You are free to chatter with all of your might about the mistakes of Russell, but I'd rather you subject yourself to the doing of God's will because I'm telling you, man -- and I'm not joking around here -- your beef with Russell and with the WTS will not lead to reconciliation with God through Christ. You are just going to be numbered among earth's billions that are probably going to perish because they had not taken the necessary steps that would lead to their survival at Armageddon. You want to believe Armageddon isn't coming? That's fine, but is this a practical thing for you to believe what with all of the evidence all around us that suggests that the end is quite near?

  @djeggnog
• 

  OUTLAW

  You want to believe Armageddon isn't coming? That's fine,

  but is this a practical thing for you to believe what with all of the evidence all around us

  that suggests that the end is quite near?.... @djeggnog

  The End..

  Will always be Near for..

  djEggNogg..

  

  ............................ ...OUTLAW
• 

  cantleave

  "and that that date will see the disintegration of the rule of imperfect men."

  Well eggnog - how have we seen that come true since 1914? In context with history - how has the period 1914 until now witnessed a disintegration of the rule of imperfect men?
• 

  djeggnog

  @cantleave:

  Well eggnog - how have we seen that come true since 1914? In context with history - how has the period 1914 until now witnessed a disintegration of the rule of imperfect men?

  My goodness! Are you telling me that you are not aware of the fact that based upon the proclamation that has been made by Jehovah's Witnesses since 1914 in announcing God's Messianic Kingdom by Christ Jesus of how many people have dedicated their lives to God and become proclaimers themselves of the good news of the kingdom? Jehovah's Witnesses are those that recognize theocratic rulership over human rulership, so that they give their allegiance to earth's rightly ruler, Christ Jesus, as their king, in full submission to their God, Jehovah.

  At present, there are some 7,124,443 publishers of the good news today, who have decided to reconcile themselves to God and are actually the ones doing the work of announcing God's Messianic Kingdom so that others might join them in doing so as well, since Jehovah's Witnesses want to realize their prospect of becoming the nucleus of the new earth and be among those that the apostle John sees in his vision at Revelation 7:14 "[coming] out of the great tribulation."

  Believe me, @cantleave, for these worshippers of Jehovah, the rule of imperfect men has disintegrated, and if you don't change course very soon and take up worship of the true God, Jehovah, and stop worshipping the Devil, who accepts all worship that is not based on truth, you will surely perish, and become like an outer garment, wrapped up and changed, and the only thing that'll be in your future is eternal death. (Hebrews 1:11, 12; Matthew 10:28)

  @djeggnog
• 

  OUTLAW

  

  

  ............................. ...OUTLAW
• 

  Essan

  DJ Eggnog said: "If you do not have an answer or you feel uncomfortable answering this question, then you should not do so."

  I already answered this question you numbskull! Read my last post! Peacedog summed it up so that even you could understand it. Everyone else understands it. You're trying to compare two things which are unrelated. The modern JW teaching regarding 1914 is exactly like Russell's teaching for 1874 but NOTHING like Russell's prediction for 1914. You can't compare the two because they are unrelated.

  You've been given endless quotes showing Russell was absolutely adamant in predicting what would happen in 1914 and only began to lose his nerve slightly as the year grew very near. If we find a few quotes where he is tentative and many others where he insists events would definitely happen, that only proves that he was contradictory and duplicitous, as well as grossly presumptuous (as False Prophets tend to be according to the Bible Deut. 18:22).

  First of all, you continue to use the post-1915 altered version of the "At Hand" book and lying claim "This is what Time is at Hand actually says". You know it doesn't, you know this is a 'cover up' version. Yet you still try to peddle this lie.

  And let's look at your attempt to pretend that his "if" in the "At Hand" book is significant - which would be in stark contrast to his other bold and unqualified predictions to 1914. You claim that it is significant and key that Russell said:

  " if this is shown to be a fact firmly established by the Scriptures," the operative word there being "if," in case you missed it, then "it will prove Firstly..., Secondly..., Thirdly...," and so forth. Russell writes "if" because we isn't able to predict what will occur when the Gentile Times had come to an end, but if what he had said "is shown to be a fact firmly established by the Scriptures," then blah, blah, blah. I the English language, the word "if" introduces a hypothetic clause conditioned on the conditions expressed being true. Get it?"

  I get that you're trying to deceive, again, yes.

  By omitting what Russell said just before this and by focusing on this "If" you're trying to claim that Russell was basically just saying "I'm not sure about this folks, but if this can be proven, then it might be the case that X, Y and Z may possibly happen in 1914" But that's just a lie isn't it?

  Let's look at what Russell actually said and in what order:

  "In this chapter we present the Bible evidence proving that the full end of the Times of the Gentiles, i.e., the full end of the their lease of dominion, will be reached in A.D. 1914 and that that date will be the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men. And be it observed, that if this is shown to be a fact firmly established by the Scripture, it will prove - Firstly... Secondly... Thirdly..."

  Only after three unqualified, absolute statements of certainty, only then, does he says that "if" this is proven then it also proves, X, Y, Z. There is an obvious and vast difference which does not allow for the meaning you try to give it. He starts by claiming something as already proven. There is no indication of doubt or room for uncertainty. It's proven as far as Russell is concerned and he's simply saying "I can and will prove this categorically, and when I have done that, you will see that this will necessarily also prove x, y, and z."

  I encourage all to read page 76 and 77 of this book and see if they can honestly see the same meaning is his words as you try to claim. A statement saying "if" something is established, after you have already said it is definitely established and is fully proven and certain to occur, proves that "if" cannot convey uncertainty or allow room for doubt. The meaning is rendered closer to "When I prove this". This is fully confirmed by comparing this passage with countless other comments of Russell's regarding 1914 - even those in the same book as you quote from - such as:

  "We consider it an established fact that the final end of the kingdoms of this world and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God will be accomplished by the end of A.D. 1914. Then, the prayer of the Church, ever since her Lord took departure - "Thy Kingdom Come" - will be answered" - (The Time Is At Hand, 1902 edition, p. 99)

  I could post more quotes like this proving the point, again, and again, and again, as I and others already have, but what's the point, DJ? You don't have the honesty to acknowledge them. I also note that you've switched from (insanely) denying Russell made any predictions to attempting to claim (falsely) that his claims were just tentative "maybes", but you don't have the honesty to admit that you are changing your claims. No matter, these new claims are also false, just less ridiculous.

  Regarding Russell, I really don't care why Russell made such catastrophic errors, only that he did. So I'm not interested in your excuse making on his behalf. You haven't even successfully excused yourself yet. Why should we listen to apologetics on behalf of an obvious False Prophet from an established liar? The issue, the purpose of this thread - which I should know seeing as I created it - is to show that you are a liar who makes repeated false historical claims in defense of the Society - in this case that Russell predicted nothing for 1914 and specifically no coming of Christ, in any capacity, visible or invisible - and that you have no regard for the facts and neither the honesty nor humility to admit that you are spectacularly and totally wrong. This purpose has been fully accomplished.

  The rest of your cheerleading on behalf of the Jehovah's Witnesses is an irrelevant distraction from the topic of this thread and is also quite wasted on me because, if I recall correctly, I was a JW for rather longer than yourself and so am well aware of what they teach and who they really are and that the Society is deeply fraudulent and deceptive, as are it's apologists.