A few questions about Adam and Eve, Death, and the Resurrection

by alfmel 15 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • alfmel
    alfmel

    I am not a JW, but they often come to my door. I listen to them, formulate questions, but they can never answer them to my satisfaction. That's why I've never become a JW. Hopefully someone here can answer my questions.

    First question: if God's intentions were to create man and place him and her in a paradaise garden, why did God place the tree of knowledege of good and evil in the garden, therefore allowing man to destroy the original plan of God?

    Second question: Because Eve ate the fruit, they were cast out of the garden to this dreadful world we live in. Thanks to Jesus, the faithful will resurrect and live again in the paradise. However, Adam and Eve had bodies of flesh and bones, but we will resurrect with spiritual bodies. If God will restore the original paradise, how come we won't resurrect with physical bodies like the ones Adam and Eve have? Why the change in body type?

  • shamus100
    shamus100

    A) The tree of knowledge was put in the garden for a test. (ppppfffftttt....)

    B) They will live forever in paradise on earth, living in real bodies only 144,000 will rule with Jesus Christ (jee, when they had this original plan, they didn't need anyone to help Jesus. Good thing eve f***ed up!) You will strut around petting lions, cleaning up crap, cutting lawns (how? I don't know, there will be no gasoline) and be a farmer. (doesn't sound like paradise to me!) Oh, you'll probably be naked, or maybe not - there's still some debate about that. And your penis will fall off if you don't die before armageddon and you will become like an angel.

    They don't sound as crazy as the Scientologists. (hahahahahahahahhaha!)

  • Sapphy
    Sapphy

    Welcome alfmel - I'm sure you'll get a few answers but I don't think anyone on here will try and persuade you to become a Witness!

    why did God place the tree of knowledege of good and evil in the garden, therefore allowing man to destroy the original plan of God?

    JW answer - The tree was a loving provision enabling a physical means by which Adam and Eve could demonstrate their wholehearted obedience and loyalty. By not presumtiously taking the fruit they would have shown their contentment with the divine gifts they had been given. At some later date God may have chosen to allow them to partake of both the tree of knowledge and the tree of life.

    However, Adam and Eve had bodies of flesh and bones, but we will resurrect with spiritual bodies.

    JW answer - God will resurrect the vast majority to everlasting life in paradise on earth with physical bodies. Only a small number will be resurected to heaven to rule in the kingdom with Jesus.

    My answers - The Eden shenanigans is an ancient legend explaining why bad things happen to good people. The second answer is one of many answers to the question "what happens when we die". No-one really knows.

  • alfmel
    alfmel

    The tree was a loving provision enabling a physical means by which Adam and Eve could demonstrate their wholehearted obedience and loyalty.

    So why is their disobedience affecting us, especially when others' obedience does not affect us? Because of them I am punished, but because of me I am saved.

    Also, how does the JW doctrine explain 1 Cor 15:22

    For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

  • alfmel
    alfmel

    From shamus100:

    They will live forever in paradise on earth, living in real bodies only 144,000 will rule with Jesus Christ

    from Sapphy:

    God will resurrect the vast majority to everlasting life in paradise on earth with physical bodies. Only a small number will be resurected to heaven to rule in the kingdom with Jesus.

    So most will resurrect with a physical body in live in paradise, but Jesus and 144,000 will resurrect with spiritual bodies and live with God? If this is correct, then I misunderstood the JW view of the resurrection thinking everyone would resurrect with a spiritual body.

  • alfmel
    alfmel

    Sapphy wrote: "I'm sure you'll get a few answers but I don't think anyone on here will try and persuade you to become a Witness!"

    That's OK. I've decided the JW doctrine is not for me. I'm just trying to understand some of the points of doctrine that always eluded me and no JW can answer to my satisfaction. The last answer I received to my first question is that God does everything for the good of his children. So putting the tree in the garden was for our good. If that be the case, then why is this world so bad?

    It seems to me (and I could be wrong) that the JW doctrine leaves many questions unaswered. That's not bad, since the entire world is filled with unaswered questions. But, it seems JWs don't like to admit they don't know and must answer any question with partially unrelated scriptures. Am I correct in my assessment?

  • frigginconfused
    frigginconfused

    I have a theory. Not JW teaching. Not biblically provable. Just my theory.

    Satan was one of the most beautiful angels. No bodies though. So beautiful by works.

    What works did he do?

    He led the think tank for the first life in history. A challenge was made to all creation angels. Come up with the best blueprint for life. Satan won. Lead the team. Had a huge part of creating life.

    What did they create?

    Dinosoars!

    The earth was their fishbowl. They gave giant lizards similar computer programs for a brain as modern lizards snakes. And for millions of years watched the struggle for life.

    There were spots throughout this trial run of life on earth where it would be more fun to wipe out all or most life and start over. Refining the efficiancy of animals. ei:flying.

    Eventually mammals made it to the scene.

    Satan was praised as the greatest thinker in heaven over his division of angels.

    Someone at a board meeting proposed the idea of creatures that were awake like angels but in meat bodies like animals.

    Satan loved this idea. But upon further examination of the proposed plan he saw that these new beings would be tied to the meat bodies. They would need food and shelter. Their spirit alone wouldnt be enough to sustain them. They would need God to stay alive.

    Well satan didnt like that idea.

    I can picture him furious at the idea! Trap a spirit in these stupid meat bodies!?!? It would be fun to play for a day in one. But at the end of the day he wanted to remain in spirit only.

    So the final decision was brought to the CEO(God) and he decided it would be best to give the new creation(Man), a body to physically interact with the earth.

    More fun to scuba dive in the carribean, or would you rather sit at home and watch it through a fishbowl.

    But satan was able to put a provision in for man to opt out of gods plan.

    The tree of the knowledge of good and bad.

    So basically before we were even created the tree and the question were posed.

    Do you want to live on earth with no wants yet needing god and food? Or should we all have unlimited access to heaven. To be able to look upon god and not die because you are an angel? And just use meat bodies as entertainment?

    Hope I still have your attention. Because the answer is what this is all about.

    Now picture the center of the earth. Molten and hot. From it begin to pull a single drop through all the solids of the earths crust untill it pops out on land. The finished product is a man. God takes this man and blows the breath of life in him.

    This is a HUGE moment in history!!!! For the first time in all eternety there is this creature with the spirit and power of an angel but the body of an animal.

    This is the point where evolution is wrong. All life did happen due to natural selection. Or as Darwin put it "Evolution". The driving force behind that was God though. Man is a unique creation.

    We are not mortal. Yet we are connected to this realm only. But this planet and its wonders are enough to keep us busy and happy.

    As far as the whole gardening thing... Maby that will be addressed in another post.

    So now Adam spends time with God and really grows to love him. Imagine being able to access all knowledge of all time? The questions you would ask.

    So after enough time had gone by on this (test)human it was decided to be a success!!!

    What gift do you give man? A partner to share all this with. And even bring forth new life(babies).

    God created man in his image...Able to love and create new life.

    So now Satan is pissed!

    The abomination of the human is going to be a permanent fixture!!!

    So why does the bible say his is the dragon as well as serpent?

    THE DINOSOARS!

    Why arent the dinosoars in the bible? It would have done wonders for the validity of it. Must have been more of a hurt then help for Gods side.

    Satan favors life as entertainment. Not worthy of holding a spirit creature.

    We are the tie between heaven and earth. We were made to subdue it and report to heaven for leadership.

    Not a single one of us can see what all of humanity is doing. So it makes sence that we cant lead ourselves. You will never have every side of the equasion like heaven can.

    So Satan gets the inexperianced one, the woman, and tells her... God is lying. Eat from the tree and be like him. Eating of the tree is the way to cast your vote..... Meat body as a puppet or as your only perspective in the universe.

    She was thouroughly decieved.

    This was a question that would put the whole works to a halt.

    This is why Satan doesnt grow old and die even though he is responcable for all sin. And we die because we need holy spirit to live. Other than that one difference we are the same as the angels. Just as important. Maby even favored by God over the angels for our beauty.

    So Why would you choose a body? Why not have unlimited power?

    At the end of the thousand year riegn we will need to stand before the abyss and as a perfect collective sing Gods praise to Satan. Thus making him cease to exist!

    Those will choose life on earth over what Satan thinks is a cage. Because I have traveled from the east coast to the west. Been to every state except alaska. Been to asia and the middle east. The Carribean and south america. It never gets old!!!! I could spend 3000 years just getting to know north america. I love it here!!! Take away my mortality and any people who would get in the way of true love for all mankind and IM SOLD!!!

    We were created with wants. This is not weakness. I love to want the love of a beautiful woman. My childrens love. The times I spend with my brother. I want pizza and lobster and cake! If all those wants can always be met by Gods promise then Im happy.

    Thanks for reading. Dont know where I belong yet but do know I love God!

  • Rufus
    Rufus
    First question: if God's intentions were to create man and place him and her in a paradaise garden, why did God place the tree of knowledege of good and evil in the garden, therefore allowing man to destroy the original plan of God?

    Greetings, Alfmel. I'm fairly new to this forum, but I think I can help with the first question. Here we go...

    God's chief purpose in creation was and is His own glory. The universe may be thought of as a grand canvas across which God displays all of his attributes. Among God's attributes are His Holiness, Mercy, Grace, and Justice. In order for these to be clearly seen on the canvas, a backdrop of sin and evil is necessary.

    God did not create these things, of course. Rather, by making man in His image and endowing him with free-will, God made sin possible. Man, in the malpractice of his free-will, made it actual. This did not take God by surprise; He knew all along that it would happen. Moreover--and this is the part many find distasteful--God intended it to happen. God has a good purpose in permitting the temporary existence of evil. As mentioned above, that purpose has to do with His glory.

    We find clear examples of this in scripture. Joseph, for instance, was beaten by his brothers, thrown into a pit, sold into slavery, falsely accused of adultery and wrongfully imprisoned. Through all his trials, Joseph trusted in God's providence. He knew that God was ultimately Sovereign over the affairs of men. And God elevated Joseph to the highest position in Egypt next to Pharaoh. In explaining to his brothers what had happened, he told them, "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives" (Gen 50:20). God worked in and through the sinful actions of man to bring-about His good purposes.

    Perhaps the most remarkable example in all the Bible is the death of Christ. The trial of Jesus was a gross miscarriage of justice. His scourging and crucifixion were nothing less than murder. Yet these wicked acts were ordained by a sovereign God. As Peter declared to the Jews who gathered at Pentecost, "[Jesus] was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross" (Acts 2:23). Two things are presented as true. First, the wicked men who killed Christ are responsible for their wickedness. Second, God both foreknew and foreordained that wickedness for His own purposes (cf. John 17:12).

    As fallen and finite creatures, we cannot reconcile these two truths. They even seem contradictory at first glance. Yet they are not. Compatibalism, though it fails to tie everything together for us with a bright red philosophical bow, is logically sound. Divine Sovereignty and human freedom are not mutually exclusive. Though difficult to comprehend, they are compatible.

    In sum, God has permitted the temporary existence of sin and evil in order to be glorified for who He is (cf. Rom 9:22-24). Man, actualizing sin and evil, put himself at a distance from God. Sin separated the two by an infinite chasm. But God, in His Mercy, provided a means of reconciliation--a means that involved the very sinful acts that rent God and man asunder. God bridged that chasm by interposing a perfectly obedient and sinless man in our place, the man Jesus Christ. And by faith in his work, despairing of our miserable attempts at self-righteousness (Isa 64:6), we receive his perfection to our accounts. He, in turn, receives our sin. This divine "swap" is the gospel in a nutshell.

    I hope this made a modicum of sense. Please feel free to ask questions or raise objections. I realize this isn't the most popular message, even among believers. Sometimes, it is difficult to let God be God. Yet He is God nonetheless.

    In Him,

    Rufus

  • EndofMysteries
    EndofMysteries

    Give God a chance to show you the answers, seek them out, may take a long time, you may learn far more then looking to others to tell you. When your finding answers, then perhaps others may serve as confirmation.

  • alfmel
    alfmel

    frigginconfused, that was a good theory. I like discussion things outside of the "official stance" and that did it. Thank you. Very enjoyable post.

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