Getting into Arguments with JW's...

by ForbiddenFruit 159 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  not a captive

  The opinion of others is of interest if we want to dialog with them; hats off to Jehovah for even trying to talk to us.

  Which is very much to the point of this discussion topic.

  Abraham was surrounded by peoples that engaged in child sacrifice (even if there is some dispute among scholars as to what extent it went on). But without doubt animal sacrifice was the norm. So the Maker of heaven and earth tries to teach his ways tin a world of slaughter, rape and pillage. He may make allowances for us "knowing we are dust"---but he nevertheless calls us to a higher consciousness.

  We actually do have some idea of what they used to go through each day. There have been plenty of peoples who have lived this way up to the present times in the very lands that Abraham lived in. And--crazy as it may seem--my husband and I traveled from NW Arkansas for a three year sojourn outside North Platte, Nebraska in the spring of 1981--in a covered wagon. We had three young children and a dog (the cat skipped out on us) and twelve head of horses. My married life from time to time included electricity--but sometimes not. Without doubt the loss of plumbing I missed the most. We butchered our own meat and on occasion I gave birth at home without these conveniences. We eventually had 7 children together. But the point that was important to me when I first picked up a Bible (miracle #1, as I was a cradle Catholic) was this: even in straightened , challenging physical circumstances the principles of personal conduct do not change in God's economy. Or I was doomed. We had events that involved physical aggression, frightful violent neighbors.Gunshots even. We didn't have this during all our days by any means--and such is not the norm for most peoples. Though we all know of many Christians who are undeterred even by war in their own lands.

  No, the tedium and the drudgery of "rustic living" definitely limit free time but I cannot see that it alone is a deterent to knowing God as he is. On the contrary. When I think of how set upon we are by the tentacles of money-woes and our technological dependence, these things make God seem less accessible--not more so.

  I apologize for the long post and the personal details butI cannot find rough living an acceptable reason for Jehovah to violate his own character and so stoop to the level of the surrounding nations by saying "kill Isaac". If he had so condescended to the prevailing opinion of worship then how could Genesis 22 have achieved the perfect parallel in Jesus' Ransom as it eventually did?

  Maeve
• 

  mindmelda

  LOL, Not a Captive, Lewis Black, a Jewish comedian says "of course God had to tell the Jews how to do everything, even how to get married. They were three hairs from a baboon!"

  It's pretty much what you're saying...the Bronze Age was one of the most awful and violent times in human history. As awful as we may think the people of those times behaved, the Mosaic law (and other law codes, the somewhat similar Law of Hammarubi for those other Semites, the Chaldeans) was definitely a civilizing aspect.

  To modern humans, harsh and demanding, but to those people, probably a lot more civil that whatever was previously held to. We know that Abraham came from the Chaldean city of Ur...and the bare beginnings of what we call civilization began there. Writing, codifying law, the beginning of people settling into cities around were agriculture now allowed for feeding such larger populations,placing themselves under law and the command of a central authority for protection all gave people the time and ability to do these things in a way the nomadic life hadn't always.

  People like Abraham no doubt carried new ideas and civilization along with them, including the idea of one God, something that crops up every so often in human history in various forms. This time, it kind of stuck in a culture more than some others. However, not long after this the Persians developed their own monotheistic concept, Zoroastrianism. It may have been the latest thing in Gods at the time, to believe in one rather than many.

  (I'm ommitting supernatural explanations, which are totally up to the individual to believe or not.)

  But, much more violent and "earthy" times than we live in now, especially in the first world.
• 

  not a captive

  Sorry I missed your post, mindmelda. I had two hungry sons come a knockin' at my door.

  I do think the greater point is listening to Jehovah. But that doesn't let him off the hook that he put himself on by stating so often his HATRED of child sacrifice. As Jesus says: the scriptures can't be broken. Also, God is unchangable. He doesn't lie . And James says he tries no one with evil. But if God gave the command to kill Isaac then how do we find the perfect parallel in the Ransom of Jesus if the test involves not giving his only begotten son but killing him?

  MadJ, I will look for that film.You see stong elements of this topic in it? It is amazing to think you would discuss this and converse as you do. I tell you that I had to leave the congregation to be free to talk about this--How is it that you do talk to "apostates"? As others note, it is healthy in the view of many but there is no denying that you are in violation of the rules. I say this not in a critical spirit but with great curiousity.

  It's been a pleasure and a relief to swap thoughts on this topic. It has occupied my spiritual life for longer than I was a JW. It helped me through times of ignorance and darkness. It helped me know that I didn't have to have perfect understanding to be perfectly obedient and know that Jehovah has the power to prevent me from making a fatal mistake as I try to do his will--as long as it is HIS voice I listen to.

  Good night all. Work tomorrow. I'll check the posts to see what's cooking. Maeve
• 

  mindmelda

  It depends on if the power of the ransom lies not in the actual death of Christ, but of his death as ultimate proof of his obedience and the willingness of Christ's sacrifice.

  I think Witnesses miss the point in their literalism, which is one of my main problems with many of their teachings, of thinking it's the ACTUAL blood of Christ that has the power of ransom, or that he was balancing some scale of perfection that Adam lost and that Christ can restore. They still believe it's actual BLOOD that we should revere, rather than the life it sustains. They miss the point so badly that it defies my ability to describe at the moment.

  The power of the ransom is the same proof that God demanded of Abraham if the demand was for obedience. There would be no actual benefit to Isaac's literal blood to God. But, there is great merit in proof of obedience and not only obedience, but WILLING obedience as evidenced by great sacrifice freely given.

  Teaching humans that life is valuable and not to be sacrificed lightly or taken for granted may well be one of many lessons here.

  I think you can get out of these accounts many lessons, but the literalism of the Witnesses prevents them from learning most of them.
• 

  tec

  It depends on if the power of the ransom lies not in the actual death of Christ, but of his death as ultimate proof of his obedience and the willingness of Christ's sacrifice.

  Thank you. I was trying to think of a way to word it. I think people sometimes forget that Jesus did not have to obey. Matt 26:53-54 "Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"

  His example shows us the strength of his faith in his Father, and therefore inspires us to have the same faith and obedience.

  Tammy
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  not a captive

  The Sudan, Afghanistan, Kurdistan, Iraq. There are violent "Bronze Age" times even now and in more places than I have named. As for the violence of the Bronze age --what of it? Did life cease? It did not. Did farming cease? It did not. Yes, people lived in walled towns and cities and shut the city gate at night. Yes, the life of Abraham it is punctuated by some violent moments. But the old man lived a life that had a great deal more of unrelenting heat, dirt and family squabbles than battles. Maybe there is a side discussion here that I didn't understand.

  The point I hoped to make earlier is only that Abraham did a wonderful thing in the response he made to God. But it was God who clarified the the kind of offering that he wanted and the kind of God he was by stopping the killing. He helped Abraham know that a burnt offering of a human as not of the dead. But it is a holy, living "sacrifice" with it's power of reason. Later on Jesus would come into a troubled time also--notwithstanding the civilizing influence of Roman rule and he had to deal with listening to his Father in a completely hostile environment --a religious one.

  I love it. Three hairs from a baboon.

  Are you sure you don't know my family, mindmelda?
• 

  not a captive

  By the time I have pecked out a response something has already appeared. I am doomed to making non-sequiturs!

  Dear friends, it is so good to hear someone say these things. I too, love that Jesus gave himself as much as his father gave him up: "The Father loves me because I lay down my life in order to take it up again. No one takes it from me; I lay it down of my own free will, and as it is in my power to lay it down, so it is in my power to take it up again; and this is the command I have been given by my Father." John 10:17,18

  I would call you sisters now. But I believe that I am three hairs short of a Baboon and don't know if you would claim the relation.

  You know, I think that it is true that literalism corrupts the meaning too. The word in Hebrew for Burnt offering means ascent , smoke , go up. Holocaust. It is poetry, it is spiritual. It is not used interchangably with zebach/sacrifice. There existed no word equivalent to what Jehovah was asking until its was defined in the perfect (yet ignorant) obedience of Abraham.

  By the time Jephthah rolled around "burnt offering" had been well defined by Abraham and Isaac's example.

  The word "love " was likewise re-defined by Jesus:" Love one another; just as I have loved you, you also must love one another. By this love you have for one another, everyone will know that you are my disciples."

  It is way past my bedtime, but this is the best Sunday I've had in well over a year.
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  theMadJW

  Very interesting posts- giving rooom for a LOT of thought- thank you!!!!!
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  not a captive

  One point that rises from Abraham's test that will not find its way to a JW publication is whether or not faith is a solitary venture. It may find delightful union in the company of other faithful individuals. But even if one's companions do not accompany you, you go on. Alone if necessary.

  Jesus answered his Father's call to offer himself without any understanding or support from his disciples: "Listen; the time will come--in fact it has come already--when you will be scattered, each going his own way and leaving me alone. And yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me."

  If Genesis 22 is quit a bit about listening to Jehovah's voice as many of us believe, doesn't that challenge exclude having that voice filtered by any religious body?
• 

  tec

  Notacaptive, you express my own thoughts very well. I often muddle things up when I try to put voice (or print) to thought; especially when I speak in haste - and I certainly make my share of mistakes, as do we all. So hearing you state something that I also believe, brings a sense of comfort. Or rather - a delightful union.

  It (faith) may find delightful union in the company of other faithful individuals. But even if one's companions do not accompany you, you go on. Alone if necessary.

  Yet none of us are alone if we have Jesus ( and through him, his Father), who gives us the strength and the comfort to go on.

  Tammy