Getting into Arguments with JW's...

by ForbiddenFruit 159 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • not a captive
    not a captive

    You know the amazing thing is that my congregation was as good as it gets. It was not a bad congregation. There was a fair distribution of people that tried to do things "by the book" and others who tried to do things "by the Book", some trying more than others to reconcile the two. The brother who was my book study conductor managed to convey (whether or not he actually felt it) a genuine respect for what had to look like my completely disasterous course. I will always love him for that. At times the strain of suspense made me angry that there wasn't a quicker and more involved action taken by the brothers. But mostly I was grateful for the space it allowed me to collapse and rebuild.

    And what were they supposed to do with me? I had only short roots, humanly speaking, in the congregation (A lot invested spiritually): Minimum time as publisher--mostly informally; I wasn't a linch-pin for other family members because no one else in my family associated with the Witnesses; I wasn't a pioneer. And being a woman had no "privilege of service". But neither had I been a problem. I was as faithful a Witness as I knew how to be under the challenging circumstances I had lived with. I am sure that they could not understand what benefit I expected to result by raising such a bizarre objection. How could they? I didn't know what I expected either. But soon I appreciated the providence of long solitude as absolutely necessary. I thought I was going crazy most of the time, or at least at first, but time alone seems to be the sine qua non of faith and of knowing God. So the long stalemate gave me time to get my bearings. Because, even though my letter was the result of a conscious voyage of faith, instead of feeling that I had arrived somewhere, I had the overwhelming sense of having slipped my moorings. I was, roughly speaking, at Job 42:1-6:

    "I know that you are all-powerful: what you conceive, you can perform. I am the man who obscures your designs with my empty-headed words. I have been holding forth on matters I cannot understand, on marvels beyond me and my knowledge. (Listen, I have more to say, now it is my turn to ask questions and yours to inform me.) I knew you then only by hearsay; but now, having seen you with my own eyes, I retract all I have said, and in dust and ashes I repent."

    So, before I go on, let me be clear: My congregation was exemplary as far as the Organization allows for dealing with persons such as myself.

    Except for one thing: they didn't disfellowship me.

    Maeve

  • theMadJW
    theMadJW

    Still trying to see your view of Abraham's near-sacrifice; THAT is the crux of the matter!

  • not a captive
    not a captive

    MadJ, There is no problem entering into Genesis 22 if we simply read the text exactly as it is in the Bible and probe the words Jehovah used.

    'Take your son,' God said 'your only child Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah. There you shall offer him as a burnt offering, on a mountain I will point out to you.'

    Alah/offering--yes. Olah/burnt offering--yes. Zebach/sacrifice--NO.

    Mindmelda points out that while the Bible's words offer great insight to understanding the Bible, that being too literal can corrupt meaning just as surely as can ignorance of the Hebrew definitions. One might think two words seemingly related intranslation are interchangable, but a Hebrew reader might know these words are not at all the same. Hebrew words hold hidden keys to the cultural backgrounds in which they were first uttered, the basic root of a word revealing the perceptions men had of their physical world. And in their world when first men reached toward God, they did it with bloody hands, bloody minds and bloody words. They moved close to God through the death of an animal. Jehovah had hard going inserting His ideas in this world. "God is love" is a statement so simple that it make us angry that he couldn't teach it faster and better than he did. Some maintain that he never tried to teach it at all.

    But if he wanted to teach it, he would have to reach us through the barrier of words that reflected our own dark thoughts. So how to communicate with us at all? He would have to establish rudimentary concepts. Hopefully a conversational thread with these basic ideas would take root, flourish and enlighten a small cadre of mankind, a "prepared people". Then he could send an individual to fully represent his thoughts to them. Even when Jesus the teacher arrived he was careful of using the emblems of old thought--old words like old wineskins could not hold the new meanings he brought without careful redefinition. So his parables and his own life as the Logos enlarged hearts, minds and words at the same time: Neighbor, love, peace, faith, forgiveness were infused with new meaning.

    But there was a lot of history that went down before Jesus came. Jehovah had to start from scratch before the People of the Book even had The Book. Before anyone was having a conversation with God.

    But a conversational thread did start with Abraham, the kind of back-and-forth that comes as two personalities try one another out, search one another's souls so to speak. How did it happen? We don't know. Did a word sound itself in Ur that Abraham could hear? Or was it a thought in Abraham's head that had to be parsed out afterward? Again, we don't know. Ultimately though, Abraham had to match God's thoughts, for better or worse, to his own vocabulary, using one of the Hebrew expressions then in currency. Though Abraham left Ur behind and many old pagan ways, still his words were framed by men that killed animals to make their gods happy. Even for the true God, this was then and has been a problem in understanding who he is. We know because today- humans invariably revert to a bloody tale where God told Abraham to kill his miracle child, Isaac.

    A word from the past, from another culture, is a fragile a vessel. Even if a word perfectly describes its intended object or action at one particular instance it tends to change over time and place. It happens in our present time in the space of--less than a generation. Abraham's story and its spiritual significance had all but disappeared by Jesus day. But it is important to recognize that the words of the story were not foreign to the Jews; yet being "a child of Abraham" was just a brand name to Abraham's heirs. "Do the works of Abraham" Jesus told them. But words alone failed to change their hearts. Jesus' audience had no "ears" to hear whatAbraham's test really meant. "Do you know why you cannot take in what I say? It is because you do not understand my language." he tells his fellow Jews at John 8:43. But it wasn't time or language that separated Jesus 'words from those around him. Nothing but the desire to hear.

    That said, how could the willig listener, Abraham, understand God ? How did God get through to Abraham? The only easy times were when the angel-men talked to Abraham, presumably in Hebrew. Even then Abraham found the messages hard to understand. At other times it was chancy at best. And he made a lot of mistakes. God had to bail him out on a few occasions because Abraham just couldn't get what God had in mind. But toward the end, the miraculous birth of Isaac provided hard evidence that Abraham, well, he wasn't just a crazy old man. He really had pretty much heard God right.

    So what is it that occurs at Genesis 22 that gives us all a knot in our stomach? We are confronted with the cognitive dissonance that Abraham grappled with so long ago. It is well at this point to slow down in the story, to slow down and review the God's conversation from a vantage point that Abraham and Isaac didn't have and couldn't have: It was only in the very act of worship that the understanding comes. Only when the knife was poised did Abraham and Isaac learn what Jehovah had asked. And there was a ram in the thicket caught by its horns. And it was said "in the mountain of Jehovah it will be provided".

    Jephthah's daughter at Judges 11, too, was a burnt offering. Yet her father never faced the quandary that Abraham and Isaac did when they walked toward Moriah's mountains with wood, fire and a burning question in their hearts. They knew how she would become "olah". God's conversation through Abraham and Isaac was showing some small progress.

    The fact is that God did not want sacrifice then. The word for ritual slaughter could so easily been conveyed. Certainly Abraham didn't give the word zebach to the story. Do I think God played with Abraham? No, I don't. But I do think the challenge lies in allowing God to call us to an way unfamiliar and infinitely higher,knowing that doing so has a certain amount of risk. It was a risk when God employed a concept familiar to Abraham. But he needed a thought that implied an act equal to releasing his son entirely, as though to death, but one that could not besmirch his holiness, his unimpeachable loving-kindness. Abraham brought to the command his whole-hearted trust in God's loving-kindness and power. Their faith in one another was so well matched that it fused into a whole new element.

    Ratcheting up an old word to this level God was going to be tricky. The word olah was the only candidate for the job. It had no blood on it. It had to do with smoke , ascent, going up , as an offering. Its meaning was as close to being purely spiritual as any word got in that bloody land. No body could afterward say that he had commanded what he truly abhorred, or that he had lied, or that he condoned child sacrifice.To insist otherwise we would have to confess that we prefer a cruel, capricious and unreliable God.

    Isn't is apparent that God's test of Abraham could never have been anything but a beautiful moment for both of them? After Jesus had mirrored this act of olah by undergoing slaughter at the hands of sinners--but not God-- we see God's conversation bearing fruit in the once-murderous Paul: "Think of God's mercy, my brothers, and worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings, by offering your living bodies as a holy sacrifice, truly pleasing to God. Do not model yourselves on the behavior of the world around you, but let your behaviour change, modelled by your new mind. This is the only way to discover the will of God and know what is good, what it is that God wants, what is the perfect thing to do."

    Amen

  • theMadJW
    theMadJW

    Doesn't make SENSE! Why go to the mountain? What did Abraham do? Have Issac stand there and look at the sky?

    Gen 22:6-And Abraham took thewood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took thefire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.

    7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?

    8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

    9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.

    10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. -KJV

    I find it hard to believe the elders didn't point these details out!

  • not a captive
    not a captive

    What doesn't make sense? We have two separate issues here. Jehovah's command, with all that implied and Abraham (and Isaac's) response, with all that it implied.

    We know that Abraham got full marks from Jehovah for listening to his voice. But the fact of Abraham carrying a knife, wood and fire signifies only that Abraham was tied to the idea of killing something for the burnt offering. The Isaac's question "where is the lamb for the burnt offering" and Abraham's answer "My son, God will provide himself a lamb for the burnt offering" tells us nothing about what Abraham contemplated on the trek up the mountain, or conclusions he reached before arriving only that he trusted that the offering would be directed by God himself. The absence of any other recorded dialog does not mean there was no more. Did Abraham wonder whether God would actually produce a wooly lamb or had he expected all along that Isaac was to be killed? Whatever final deliberation were or were not made cannot be known from the story.

    We cannot know the full consideration Abraham gave to obeying Jehovah's command beyond this: finding nothing but Isaac himself to "smoke up" as an offering to Jehovah, Abraham nearly killed him: the very miracle of Isaac's birth and the surety of God's promise had given the hope that Isaac would be resurrected.

    But simply knowing Abraham's response does not inform us of the full significance of Jehovah's command, does it?

    We know a lot that prevents Jehovah from calling for the killing of Isaac because Jesus said,"the scriptures cannot be broken":

    Jehovah has banned child sacrifice as a detestable thing on too many occasions.

    He never changes.

    He doesn't lie.

    He tries no one with evil (Would He thus try Abraham if he declared child sacrifice to be evil?).

    He hates a tricky tongue.

    These are the easy reasons that it is wrong, wrong, wrong to use "kill, sacrifice your son" in remembering the test of Abraham. Many words were available to tie this utterance of Jehovah irrevocably to a Father killing his beloved son. But Abraham himself gave the story and the word the inflection of thought ithat Jehovah gave him, the Hebrew word olah that so well guards Jehovah's great and good heart, by itself has not a drop of blood on it. Abraham only attaches a bloody inference to himself.

    So much for that line of reasoning. But the brothers said that the "sacrifice" of Isaac is the type for Jesus' sacrificial death. It is true that they so are paired. But it isn't in the Father's killing of His Son that we find the similarity. No. "For God soloved the world that he gave his only begotten son.." One brother tried to use the English expression "Would you not agree, sister, that it was a great sacrifice on Jehovah's part." I told him that the English was used idiomatically in that instance because Hebrew is very specific about its killings. Zebach meaning "kill, slaughter" is not able to agree that "it was a great killing on Jehovah's part." Others killed Jesus. Jehovah's son surrendered his life. The same as Isaac.

    What was gained by letting Abraham wonder what was up with the Test? Hello! Isn't that what goes on with us? All the time!

    We listen to God's direction--as we understand it (no cheating and listening to others now)and we cannot but dread what may follow. But, on the other hand what have we got to lose that he cannot replace if it pleases him. But it is heartening to know that Jehovah will not have us actually do a wrong thing(do not harm the lad!) if we listen to him in every step we take when under test.

    What good reasons can anyone have to cling to the bloody sacrifice version? It presents a troubling image of God and a frightening example of paternal care. Virtually every church I have found endorses it and every children's bible book I have read. I purchased a children illustrated bible story book for a quarter last summer to add to my collection of 'Abraham's test'. This book really surprised me, they had solved the problem of the bloody scary God of Genesis 22 by eliminating the story entirely! And just this month, our local newspaper of April 8, 2010 had an article subheaded Ritual killings are on the rise in Uganda which "pointed to the story in Genesis, when God asked Abraham to sacrifice a son to prove his loyalty to God. (The son was spared because Abraham passed God's test by showing his willingness to do as God commanded.)" How is this the God that Jesus represents?

    "Why go to the mountain...?" If we even look at this figuratively and see that the act of worship Abraham attempted (and any stumbling effort we make in our worship of God) is approved on no other basis than this: "because of the fact that you have listened to my voice"--then the story proves a blessing . We do not worship God truly through the work of a committee. It really is through a kind of solitary stumbling. We talk, O yes, we can and do talk. But ultimately we must look to God himself to prevent our mistaken zeal, our misapprehension from failing to get the point. For if we don't listen closely or we only listen to the clamor of others, we may kill Isaac, thinking we have rendered God sacred service.

  • mindmelda
    mindmelda

    Hebrew is conveyed rather crudely in English at times. Nice commentary on that. After you learn a few languages, you tend to figure out that not everything is conveyed literally from one language to another too well.

    Translated word for word, there are phrases and idiomatic sayings that make no sense without the cultural context behind them being known to the speaker or reader.

    The fact that people misread the Bible as far as blanket condemnation of homosexuality is another good example of that. The terms used make more sense used in the context of the societies that produced them.

    Most of the taboos about male homosexuality in the Bible are in reference to temple prostitution or sexual practices that were religious in nature. Sexual was a big part of rituals to some other gods in the cultures around both Jews and Christians and ritual prostitution was not done because of a person's individual sexual leanings or inclinations, it was done out of compulsion as part of religious ritual.

    Nothing at all is said in the Bible about committed or lasting relationships of a sexual nature between individuals of the same sex being forbidden, not in context. There are indications that the relationship as described in Hebrew between David and Jonathan that could be interpreted as a sexual relationship, although mainstream religion has been pretty squeamish (and in effect, dishonest) about doing that.

    But, if religions were all truly honest in their scholarship, they would consider various meanings as necessary and put them into the proper cultural context even if it offended some sensibilities of their followers.

    The word that Paul uses in Greek, "arsenokoites" for instance, that is usually translated "men who lie with men" or "homosexuals" in I Corinthians: 6: 9-11 for instance, is not the usual word that Greeks used used for homosexuals "androkoites". It's a word that was usually used to refer various sexual acts often offered by temple prostitutes (of both sexes), again, more of a religious prohibition than a sexual one.

    In 35 A.D., the secular philosopher Philo wrote that arsenokoites referred to temple prostitution while later Christian literature used the word to mean variously prostitution, incest or rape without any single clear meaning. In a treatise on sexual sin attributed to Patriarch John IV of Constantinople in a paragraph dealing with coercive and non-procreative sex, is a sentence that would translate as "In fact, many men commit the sin of homosexuality with their wives".

    This may have been discussing the way arranged marriages of the time allowed for a man to have non-consensual sex with their wives on demand (marital rape), and it was still socially acceptable, but he was discouraging Christian men from such acts. Lack of consensuality seems to be the thing emphasized. A prostitute lacks the ability to consent to sex, really, they are sexual slaves or servants to an owner or in that society, to a deity, and that was being forbidden for Christians on that basis.

    Anyway, you cannot discuss the languages of the Bible or a single scripture without linguistic or cultural context, and this and the story of Abraham and Isaac are two good examples of how that was done with much harm and misunderstanding being the result.

  • theMadJW
    theMadJW

    I'm disappointed woth you, NAC- you let a personal speculation put a wedge between you and the brotherhood.

    You said nothing of substance- nothing that contradicts that Abraham WAS about to slaughter his son- no matter HOW horrible that was to you....OR him.

  • not a captive
    not a captive

    MadJ--I KNOW Abraham tried to kill Isaac. I totally agree with that. I never thought otherwise.

    What I did disagree with in the literature when it said Jehovah actually commanded the killing of Isaac. It was especially frustrating to talk to the brothers and the Branch on this because if you read the comments about how Jehovah viewed human sacrifice in the Insight Vol II under Jephthah's Vow it is very likely you will understand why I would never agree that Jehovah would do what he has always hated. This is in our literature and I agree with it because it is in the Bible. What the brothers wanted me to say was not in the Bible. They knew it and I knew it.

    So what would YOU do if you had to decide between the truth or a lie about Jehovah?

  • mindmelda
    mindmelda

    What's so great about the brotherhood anyway? I was treated like dirt by them much of the time. I'm glad you're having a better time with that, but it was one of the main reasons I'm not a Witness anymore and haven't been for some time.

    After you've been screwed over more by Witnesses in business deals than you ever were by "worldly" people, or have an elder scream at you and call you vile names a few times, you may feel differently too.

    I can forgive that, and do. What I can't forget is why belong to an organization that never tried to correct it and excused it when it was repeatedly brought to their attention and tried to make me feel I was wrong for speaking up about being cheated and verbally abused. Blaming the victim is poor policy anyway you cut it and hardly defines justice, which if I remember correctly, is an aspect of God himself.

    Witnesses proved to me over and over again over the 34 years I was associated that they don't practice love as a whole and that they aren't any different than the people they condemn.

    And besides, they blatantly teach nonsense as the absolute God's truth and one day, it's all going to blow up in their faces eventually when their false promises never come to pass, as they haven't come to pass for the last 136 years.

    If you need a God that commands men of faith to slaughter and burn their children to appease him, be happy with it. That's pretty much the Witness conception of God anyway, so it would no doubt suit many of them to believe that. After all, whats one person when he's about to get medieval on 99% of the world's population and righteously slaughter them, according to what Witnesses teach?

  • theMadJW
    theMadJW

    You mean Abraham MISUNDERSTOOD God? The account DOES sat God did it as a TEST!

    There was no temple he would have to go and serve in, as with Jepthath's daughter.

    I am trying HARD to see it from your eyes- and see NOTHING to indicate our view is wrong on this, my friend!

    MM- what is so GREAT is having an association with the same goals, and that tries, as I, to livew up to what is right & true.

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