Jehovah's Witnesses and Calvinistic Predestination

by AllTimeJeff 69 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Chalam

  Is Grace limited to Calvinism?

  Calvinism teaches "irresistible Grace" i.e. God's grace gets the elect in the end, no matter how much you resist.

  However, Arminian thinking also teaches grace.

  3.2 Between Calvinism and Arminianism

  Between Calvinism and Arminianism

  Both Calvinists and Arminians generally accept the concept of common grace in that there are undeserved blessings which God extends to all mankind. However, the Arminian sees this common grace including what has been termed "common sufficient grace" or the Wesleyan "prevenient grace" whereby the effects of the fall are offset such that all persons now have free will and the moral ability to understand spiritual things and turn to God in Christ for salvation. The Calvinist maintains that God's common grace does not improve man'sunregenerate nature, nor does it improve his ability to change his moral standing before God. Covenantal Common Grace

  The verses I quoted were to highlight the teaching of predestination of the elect in light of the fact that God wants no-one to perish and accordingly Christ died for all men.

  Blessings,

  Stephen
• 

  PSacramento

  I think that if God chooses to "predestin" some people for a purpose then it is his choice.

  Predistination, destinly, preordained, these things are all great things to debate, but IF God gave us free will then any destiny or predestination or preordaindeness is still subject to whether we choose to accept it.
• 

  Chalam

  I think that if God chooses to "predestin" some people for a purpose then it is his choice.

  Of course.

  Predistination, destinly, preordained, these things are all great things to debate, but IF God gave us free will then any destiny or predestination or preordaindeness is still subject to whether we choose to accept it.

  It might be worth noting the fourth point of Calvinism

  Irresistible grace

  Main article: Irresistible grace

  The doctrine of irresistible grace (also called "efficacious grace") asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith.

  The doctrine holds that every influence of God's Holy Spirit cannot be resisted, but that the Holy Spirit is able to overcome all resistance and make his influence irresistible and effective. Thus, when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved.

  I am not saying that is my belief though conversely it is my own experience! Maybe I am a Calvinist after all?

  My firm belief is if you hear the call then respond!

  Hebrews 4:6-8 (New International Version)

  6 It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. 7 Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before:
  "Today, if you hear his voice,
  do not harden your hearts." 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day.

  Isaiah 45:22 (New International Version)

  22 "Turn to me and be saved,
  all you ends of the earth;
  for I am God, and there is no other.

  Blessings,

  Stephen
• 

  PSacramento

  Grace is a gift and like any gift it must be received, we are free to receive it or not.

  Any other way of looking at it is NOT free will.

  Free will must exist because if it doesn't then indeed, Jesus died for nothing because we never had a choice and if he died for nothing, what did he die for?

  And if free will was not given to us by God then all that is wrong in the world that is caused by Us is NOT our fault, it is God's since he is the "puppet master".
• 

  AllTimeJeff

  Hi there. I would like to clarify myself, knowing as we do now that we have a Calvinist here to properly represent the religion. It is clear that my efforts at comparing an idea that JW's don't teach, but in my opinion practice in an ironic way with my rudimentary understanding of Calvinism was probably not the best way to broach the subject.

  And I appreciate learning more then I did regarding Arminianism and Calvinism.

  So, while this was just an observation of JW's, (a religion I know well) it wasn't meant to be a commentary on Calvinism (a religion I obviously am not familiar with.)

  XJW4EVR, thanks for your input. While you are free to charecterize your religion as you wish, I would also remind anyone reading this that JW's claim to be a Christian religion, and most Christians don't believe that this is so, because they don't worship Jesus. JW's insist that they do, and that they also have keep their rights to define their religion as they so choose. Many disagree with them.

  So while I have no doubt that my comparison of Calvinism and JWism regarding predestination was a bit of a stretch (admittedly so), I still seem to think that Calvins believe or teach in some kind of "predestination". Here is Wiki's opening salvo

  Calvinism (also called the Reformed tradition, the Reformed faith, or Reformed theology) is a theological system and an approach to the Christian life. [1] The Reformed tradition was advanced by several theologians such as Martin Bucer, Heinrich Bullinger, Peter Martyr Vermigli, and Huldrych Zwingli, but it often bears the name of the French reformerJohn Calvin because of his prominent influence on it and because of his role in the confessional and ecclesiastical debates throughout the 16th century. Today, this term also refers to the doctrines and practices of the Reformed churches of which Calvin was an early leader. Less commonly, it can refer to the individual teaching of Calvin himself. [2] The system is best known for its doctrines of predestination and total depravity, stressing the absolute sovereignty of God.

  Just curious, so that I may understand you. Thanks.
• 

  leavingwt

  I like Calvinism, because it explains to believers why I'm going to Hell and why it's pointless to preach to me.
• 

  Chalam

  Grace is a gift and like any gift it must be received, we are free to receive it or not.

  Any other way of looking at it is NOT free will.

  Irresistible grace teaches the gift is so appealing, even with freewill one cannot resist taking the it!

  Blessings,

  Stephen
• 

  designs

  All of that angst over fairy dust. Isn't the irony fascinating, all of these groups and individuals over the centuries claiming to be guided and enlightened by the Holy spirit coming to divergent views. Now there's harmony otherwise known as winging it

  Feed the hungry, look after this beautiful earth, do a little good each day, it will be alright...
• 

  quietlyleaving

  designs

  I find a lot of agreement with the idea that holy spirit is difference itself - something to be revelled in

  This to me explains quite well when believers say they somehow feel separated and unique
• 

  Rufus

  "If I were to ever be a Christian, I would reject Calvinism outright. A god who predestines anyone to an eternity of suffering is not worth my time."

  LWT,

  Predestination isn't unique to Calvinism. It's a biblical term (Acts 4:28; Rom 8:29-30; 1 Cor 2:7; Eph 1:5, 11). Therefore, all religions that rely on the Bible as a source of authority must have a doctrine of predestination. Those doctrines often do not agree with one another, but one cannot simply dismiss the concept and at the same time maintain a reverence for Holy Writ. In short, all Christians believe in predestination. The debate, then, is not whether God predestines some to salvation and others to damnation. He certainly does. Rather, the question is this: On what basis does God predestinate?

  Historically, Christians fall into one of two camps on this matter: Calvinist and Arminian. Calvinism asserts that the basis of God's predestination is in His sovereign choice. All of humanity stands condemned for sin. God is not obligated to save anyone. In fact, if Divine Justice were served without haste, all of humanity would be in eternal punishment already. But because God is also Merciful, He has elected to save some. These, the "elect", receive mercy. The rest of sinful humanity receives justice.

  Arminianism, in contrast, establishes predestination on the will of man. God, in eternity past, looked down the corridors of time and saw all those who would respond freely to the gospel of grace. He then predestined them to life. All others (God could see) would freely choose to defy God and live in wanton rebellion against Him. Condemnation, therefore, is merely God's agreement with their choices.

  I, myself, am a Calvinist. I find God not only worthy of my time but eminently worthy of everything that I have and everything that I am. It grieves me that you've escaped a cult only to fall into the deeper pit of unbelief. As the author of Hebrews exhorts: "See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God," (3:12). To leave the WatchTower is only a step in the right direction if that step is toward God.

  If you're interested in discussing this further, I am at your service.

  Sincerely,

  Rufus