Right first of all may I say thank you for ALL your input so far to everyone. And also thank you for your compliments!
I'm so conscious of the post ration on this site, so now I'm going to get a jolt of caffeine and then be right back to start into a rather lengthy post. Sorry!
Black Sheep posted a copy of an article from an early Watchtower. From this and what I know so far about CT Russell and the way it all started, I would think that the WTS has it's origins in sincere Christian thought. It is very much my belief the the churches I see around me do not adhere to Bible truths and this worries me immensely just from reading the Bible. This study with the witnesses is just one aspect of me 'testing my faith' as it were. :-)
Now Reniaa, in one of your posts you pointed to Acts 15:20 and 29. I do see your point and apologize for my omission. However I will add that there are other Christian churches that teach that meat / blood should be avoided unless necessary.
1 Corinthians 13:8
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
The time for these things to happen seem to be have been with the appostles and then they went out of the season for them happening.
I have to ask this question, why do spiritual gifts 'seem to have ended with the apostles'. Many many many churches would disagree with you on this point! You say they 'seem' to have ended, does the WTs have a clear revelation/prophecy/mandate to state that they have ended? I apologise but you seem to be ignoring the next two verses of 1 Corinthians 13:
8 Charity never a faileth : but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
I must point out that I'm not attacking you in anyway, but surely in verse 10 it refers to the Second Coming or the end of the world? Obviously at this point Jesus had already been to earth, had already died and been resurrected and returned to God, so Paul was saying that these things would be finished at some future event that he called 'perfect'.
Reniaa also said
As for the healing well unfortunately I think we must look to history testifying against it continuing and ending like the others did. I think it would have been noticed if christians could heal during wars and plagues throughout the centuries.
Now again please don't think I'm attacking I'm just trying to get a better understanding of what you're saying. If the WTs is seeking to restore the 'primitive church', then surely healings and gifts of the spirit would've been restored to the earth. Now this is entirely suppostion on my part, but what if, like Noah, at all the stages through the earth's 'apostasy' that the WT teaches, what if there had still been one or two good men who continued the same practices? I personally don't believe that any healer, even the early apostles, could've done anything if it was not with the will of God. So for example when Christ raised Lazarus, to me that is because the reason that God allowed Lazarus to die was so that Jesus could show His power on the earth. If it was actually the apointed time of his death then he wouldn't have been raised.
My personal feelings are somewhat close to yours in regards to the tele-evangelists who seem to be out to make a profit rather than anything else, however I don't believe that we can discount healings that have occured for no apparent reason other than because of the prayer and faith of individuals and congregations. I do think you're correct that the gifts are not a testimony of faith, but I would argue that since the Bible teaches us about spiritual gifts then we should not seek for them, but we should be willing to use them. If that makes sense. (!) sorry need another jolt of caffeine I think - feeling really fuggy!
I believe Russell was a man who recognised the truth of god's word and got blessed because of it
Does this mean that this can be done by any individual? Doesn't this then negate the need for an organization to decide on doctrine? Isn't that what James 1:5 directs us to do:
5 a If any of you lack b wisdom , let him ask of God, that c giveth to all men liberally, and d upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
Again, I must reiterate that I'm not attacking. I'm trying to come to a better understanding of exactly what CT Russell set out to do, and what the WT now does.
You asked me to ask my visiting witnesses, and unfortunately I've been asking them many questions for many many months and they keep saying they'll have to look them up, or ask the brothers in the KH, but then they never get back to me with an answer. It is frustrating! I thank you Reniaa for your time :-)
Onthewayout - don't get me started on arguments about the canon of scripture! This is one thing that seems to have stumped my visiting witnesses. They were very clear and produced various printouts that the reason they only accept the current canon is because they only accept books into the Bible that are in the Bible! It was a chicken and egg situation. Don't tell me that every book in the canon references another book in the canon. I then asked them the question about these books:
Book of Enoch – Jude 1:14
Book of Jasher – Joshua 10:10
Book of the Acts of Solomon – 1 Kings 11:41
Book of the Covenant – Exodus 24:7
Book of the Wars of the Lord – Numbers 21:14
Book of Samuel the Seer – 1 Chronicles 29:29
Book of Nathan the Prophet – 2 Chronicles 9:29
Book of Shemaiah the Prophet – 2 Chronicles 12:15
Third Epistle to the Corinthians – 1 Corinthians 5:9
Epistle from Laodicea – Colossians 4:16
Now I know that certain of these so called apocrypha have been recorded in part in recent decades in things like the Dead Sea Scrolls and Nag Hammadi codices. I don't believe for one second that God has protected any canon from the work of man at all. If He had then there would be ONE canon, ONE Bible. Everyone I speak with seems to discount the fact that Bible means library. I don't just mean JWs, I mean everyone who seems to have an opinion about the idea of a closed canon. From all my research and understanding I don't believe it's possible that the canon is closed. I don't see any scriptural evidence to suggest that, and if it truly was then why have we been hung out to dry? :-S
Sorry, small rant over :-)
Onthewayout said
their literature says that they are the ones dispensing truth in the last days with the assignment to spread the warning. Proof is supposed to be in that they are the only ones doing it, they are the only ones with love among themselves, they are the only ones who recognize the time we live in, YADDA YADDA.
I really have to just say here that if that is WT is teaching then they are very shortsighted. Where is the proof of their 'assignment' from God? It comes back to my same questions about whether they are indeed saying they have received 'prophecy' and if so, how? There are plenty of other churches and faiths within christendom that fit the same model. I would challenge anyone to provide me with a list of what WT says they are doing that is so unique to them? This is where I get so very frustrated with the WT. I cannot believe in any way, shape or form, that God would allow genuine seekers, genuine Bible believing people to be annihalated because they don't belong to WT. I should equally point out that I don't believe that we can all do whatever we want and still get to heaven!
You also made the point that they use the idea of faithful and discreet slave from Matthew. Isn't this really just about our stewardship? For example the following references:
Now forgive me, but isn't the theme here saying that EACH of us is charged with being good stewards. That we should all do all we can to prepare for the return of Christ? That it is our duty to discover the truth? That we must be wise and faithful to Him? I doubt that any of us in any faith will have a decent excuse before God on Judgement Day if we say, "well I didn't look into other churches because I believed {church name or person} was infallible".
Bluecanary - thankyou for the welcome mat! You said
What I take issue with is the idea that doctrines like the trinity, hellfire or immortality of the soul are the most important ones for a religion to get right. Jesus said the two most important commands were to love God and love your neighbor. JWs cling to doctrines and practices that are in direct opposition to these commands (blood doctrine, alternative service, etc), ergo they cannot have God's approval, regardless of whether they have God's singular nature correct.
I agree with you that ultimately it is the teachings of Christ that we must follow. And I should note here that I think in regards to hell and immortality of the soul from what I've read so far with my visiting JWs, I really think they've spun off on a tangent. I can't qualify their argument with basic Bible study. If the soul is not immortal what exactly did Jesus do when we are told he went to teach the spirits in prison? That alone, aside from other references, is enough to convince me that either their interpretation of the Bible is incorrect, or the Bible is incorrect. I'm not sure that WT would agree with either position, but both cannot be right. This again comes back to my question that if WT say they are prophets restoring truths, then why do they accept the Bible as infallible? It's starting to make even less sense to me now than it did when I first started with them.
digderidoo you said the following
Janey they made their prophecies through readin the book of Daniel and Revelations, they applied these to Matthew and Lukes account of the last days, and confirmed it with measurements of Egypt's great pyramid. They also applied a few single scriptures to rhese books and came up with dates, it wasn't a case of having a prophetic vision, it was through study of the bible and applying it to calculations and measurements of the Greta Pyramid in Egypt.
Now forgive me again please, but they are not prophecies in my opinion. Prophecies to me are about direct communication from the almighty to a man or men on the earth revealing His will. Simply applying some random method of study or maths to written words or even to non-christian structures, well that's not prophecy. I take enormous exception with your quote from WT that no prophecy can be understood before it was fulfilled, if that's the case then what's the point! THat sounds to me like someone having a random tarot reading and then discovering several years later that their mom or dad has died and they had a card saying someone close to them will die. It's not prophecy it's random events that people can read how they want. True prophecy is definate, such as the details revealed about the birth of Christ in the OT.
Your point about the return of the OT patriarchs is something else that doesn't fit for me. Surely these men will be 'exalted' and 'highly regarded' and in WT teaching it would make sense for them to be part of the 144,000, but of course that isn't what they teach. There are some teachings of other churches that believe some of this ancient patriarchs have returned to the earth periodically through the centuries . Your final quote about leaders of the reformation etc I would say that yes, they probably had some light of Christ with them, and possibly struggled because of the limited knowledge that they had to restore anything like the primitive church. It is easier now we have evidences from the likes of the people of Qumran ( Dead Sea Scrolls) and obviously the Internet!
Ldrnomo, I have to say that in regards to Bible teachings there is some evidence to suggest that people who turn away from the gospel should be 'cut off'. Now I have to admit I have no experience of how this works in practice in most churches although I do understand how some approach it. I think there has to be an element of tact involved. For example if yoru brother and sister is excommunicated then it is probably prudent that you dont' spend time with them when they are engaging in spiritually draining activities, but then it is equally important to be a good example and to assure them of your love. I'm not sure what the WT psoition is on this but I have heard of many horror stories about families cutting people off entirely. I have a friend who is married to a JW although she is not, he is ex'd, but his mother is one of the 'anointed' (albeit she lives in Jamaica), but then they do spend as much time with each other as is possible. As I said, I don't know the teachings of WT on this subject well enough.
Dacheech you said
-->when something is symbolic and when its not (bible scriptures)
--> when to listen to the mosaic law and when not to!
Could you or anyone else give me some scriptural examples of these contradictions?
To SpikeTassel and other wellwishers thank you!
I think I'm about done now, I've been at this for about an hour!
Thanks in advance
Jane
