just a few questions I don't want to ask directly hell

by Janey214 92 Replies latest jw friends

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep
    People constantly looking at the imperfection of men remind me of this scripture.
    John 8:7
    But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

    OK Ren. That means that it is ok for me to throw out all of the 'evidence' that you quoted me against the Catholic Church in my youth.

    Thanks Dad.

    I'll remember that when I see you on Sunday.

    I am bringing the Watchtower Library CD so that you can show me how to add up the Babylonian king's reigns to arrive at Nebuchadnezzar's reign beginning in 625 BC, just like you have refused to do for me for the past 40 years.

    Love,

    Your son,

    Chris

  • nelly136
    nelly136

    I wouldn't trust him in my car with an icecream

  • isaacaustin
  • Janey214
    Janey214

    I'm going to address the two posts by reniaa now.

    If I understand what you're saying correctly, basically CT Russell recognized a need for the christian world to be singing from the same hymn sheet, for them to stop arguing about doctrines and having opposing interests, so he went back to the Bible to look at what it said and try to work out what it was that was originally taught?

    How did he therefore decide to use the Protestant rather than Catholic or Orthodox canons? I'm assuming now that he was a scholar rather than a prophet in that he was looking for the best answer, does anyone know if he considered other religions and churches?

    In Reniaa's first post she said:

    This has happenned, when Jesus returns he isn't looking for some messiah type race but simply people that are following the bible truthfully and not allowed themselves to become weeds letting the bible and holy spirit guide them.

    Another thing is we will have limited holy spirit gifts in these times.

    Forgive me but my understanding thus far of WT teachings is that no-one but JW's can have the Holy Spirit guiding them and that there are no longer any spirituals gifts like visions, tongues etc on the earth today. My visiting witnesses said that the gifts were removed when Jesus left the earth.

    Reniaa also said that people who become leaders will be judged by Jesus on His return for how they have taught the Bible. This I understand but again I am trying to discover more about where the individual doctrines of the WT come from or how after 1700 years CT Russell etc can have expected to have restored the original church without some sort of divine help.

    Regarding Reniaa's second post, I am somewhat confused. I never said I was looking for perfect men or leaders or anything of the sort. I understand that even the prophets of OT times were subject to human foibles, there is only Jesus Christ who has ever been perfect and that I acknowledge, respect and believe. This is why I'm unsure of why Reniaa wonders if I am looking for perfect leaders. No I am not, I'm looking to verify, corroborate and understand what I am learning.

    Also Reniaa quoted 1 Corinthians 13: 8-10. Now as I understand it, particularly reading on into verse 11 and 12, surely this is referring to either death or a future restoration of the Word? At at the point when we have full knowledge rather than this cloud that is over the whole christian world in relation to doctrines and interpretation, surely then all the points in verse 8 will cease? Could it not also be read as saying that we need charity, hope and faith and that everything else is gravy? A man can set himself as a prophet but having not charity he will be judged accordingly?

    Am I not also correct in thinking that WTs teach OT Law also, so what about the levitical priesthood or apostolic authority? Surely leaders need authority from somewhere. The Catholic church teaches that they can follow the pope right back to Peter. Others teach that authority has continued passing from one man to the next, even from catholic to protestant during the reformation times, yet others teach that their authority has been restored by visions and prophecy? What is the WT teaching or understanding on this?

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    Thank you all once again, I'm going to go check out the jwfacts website now

    =D

    J

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    hi Janey

    sorry I thought your study was further along so you would know more on our basics.

    Witnesses accept that the jewish Law was fulfilled by Jesus so we don't follow it as jews do but it is useful for knowing God's ways and mind on principles.

    When I said "limited gifts" of spirit I am agreeing with witnesses I just put it badly. Yes there are no more tongues or healing or inspired word or prophecies anymore but we can still pray for holy spirit guidance for understaning on already written bible prophecies concerning these times Which we witnesses do and help to see bible truths.

    I actually agree with your second post I personally think russel got help but not as openly as in the bible days. He prayed for help so when looking at God's word the bible he could see the truths in it clearly and we can judge by the fruitage of what Jw's preach doctrinely (As we can with any christian religion) but this a constant process. While we are imperfect and under attack from culturial pressure and people around us to do things unbiblically and against God. We need constant refinement.

    Yes your right, those three things.. faith, hope and love would lead us to God but they are not just words we have to understand what they mean. We have faith in God that the bible is his word and something to be followed and used for correcting our wrong ideas. otherwise all God would needed to do was write that one sentence and forget the rest of the bible.

    I am a parent I love my children but that also includes telling them off for their own protection. Russell was a prophet(but not in the sence of doing prophecy you don't have to do prophecy to be a prophet) but his love for God lead him to really researching the bible for Gods truths like the boreans did.

    Acts 17:11
    Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

    I am a witness because I measured the religions around me by it and found only the witnesses with real bible truths that are from the bible and not mens imaginings. Believing in One God Jehovah and his Actual son Jesus is a wonderful bible truth so far from the roman triune God. but thats my opinion you will have to study for yourself but mainly on this anti-witness site they will tell whats wrong with witnesses.

    They use 'Adam's Excuse' blaming others for not following God law in many cases.

    Reniaa

  • Janey214
    Janey214

    Hi Reniaa

    I think perhaps you don't know how far along my studies are now from reading what you've put.

    I understand the concept of Jesus fulfilling the Mosaic OT law. However I also understand that WTs do use certain of the Mosaic laws such as the use of blood. I'm assuming from your answer that JWs do not trace any line of authority.

    You mentioned about only having the influence of the spirit, and this is something that really is troubling me because my visiting witnesses have yet to come up with an answer as to why the gifts of the spirit were removed from the earth. For example

    James 5:14

    Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

    Isn't this about the gift of healing? How can this have been removed from the earth after Jesus left if James was writing after the death of Jesus?

    ========================================================================================================

    You said you felt that CT Russell was guided by the Spirit into asserting the doctrines as they were meant by God. But am I not also correct in stating that WT teaches that only JWs are entitled to receive promptings from the spirit. If that's the case then how does each individual witness come to know that the WT is true?

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    One thing that troubles me with WT teaching, and this is probably because not enough has been written or taught about how CT Russell etc came to their conclusions, is the teaching about infalliblity of the Bible? Bible Scholars have a somewhat different approach to this understanding. For example, most scholars would indicate that John wrote his gospel AFTER Revelation. If that's the case then where the WT dismisses the apocrypha and other translations of the Bible and interpretations of the Bible by relying on Revelation 22:18. For ease I will use the New World Translation.

    18 “I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll;

    Now if the scholars are correct then John himself added to the Bible. Also this discounts Deuteronomy 4:2 and Proverbs 30:6 which are also warnings about adding to the written word.

    Again, does the WT address this in relation to using the protestant canon rather than other canons or including other apocrypha currently available.

    My visiting witnesses gave me a video about continuing prophecy including the Dead Sea Scrolls. They were using the apocrypha to prove that the NWT matched the earliest available versions, particularly of Isaiah. But at the same time they stated that the apocrypha were not something that should be read as there were many erroneous teachings. This again troubles me in regards to the timeline. If the apocrypha can't be trusted to be correct then how can they be used to confirm the NWT?

    ========================================================================================================

    In relation to your comment about CT Russell being a prophet but not a Prophet then I think I understand what you're saying. How did CT Russell know that the inspiration he was receiving was from God rather than from Satan? It is a genuine question and I hope that you do not take offence by that.

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    For what it's worth I don't accept the teachings about the trinity either. The whole Christian world troubles me in that God can allow such confusion in the first place. Why doesn't He sort it out? I guess you would say He has!

    I am intrigued Reniaa by you saying that you are a JW convert. All of my visiting JWs have been lifelong members. Forgive me for prying but when you started your studies had you had any affiliation with another Christian church or doctrine?

    ========================================================================================================

    About the video that I think Blacksheep posted. (I'm adding this here because I've only got a few posts left today!)

    I've watched it and I can certainly see that there are parts that are mentioned that could be applicable to many religions, and as a whole I can see this applying to things like Waco. I'm not sure though that the WT is any more like a cult than any other church or faith. Many other churches ask similar things as the WT do, it's just that they're considered mainstream where WT is not. Things like money, discipline etc. I am certain that most churches have 'bitter apostates' who will label their previous experience as being cultish.

    ========================================================================================================

    My position is that I believe there needs to be clarification, and I believe is behooves all Christians to find out the truth about what God wants from them. I believe that we should study all materials and tracts out there and balance them against what we think we know and against what we think God wants of us. In one respect therefore I disagree wholeheartedly with the WT tradition of supporting only their literature and not reading so called apostate texts. A tree cannot grow as strong if it is kept in a glasshouse away from rain and wind with constant heat, food and attention, it will never be as strong as the tree that survives the inclement weather on a mountainside. I'll get off my soapbox for a bit now. :-)

    J

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    Janey,

    This is scans of pages 8 & 9 of the first ever Watchtower.

    Make of it what you will.

    Cheers

    Chris

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    hi Janey

    Thank you for your reply. I was a born-in witness but my parents were only on the fringes and though I knew a lot I never really got to the depth of it. I fell away for various personal reasons and it's only now in recent years that I started thinking on God and really researching all the history of christianity and really putting what the Jw's teach to the test. Really researching teachings I had accepted but hadn't really looked at their source. I also have done this with other christian religions and now know more on trinity than I ever wished too ackkk :s.

    The sppostles had to decide what parts of the law was still strongly applicable (especially as they had all these new gentiles that didn't even know the law) they recognised that the law was there to actually highlight sin and make the jews a prepared race for Jesus coming and there many principles that are still important for us to follow even more so than jews that were always looking for loopholes.

    Acts 15:20
    Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

    Acts 15:29
    You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.

    So blood was still consider one law we should follow by the appostles.

    You saw this scripture I posted earlier on most of the gifts ending?

    1 Corinthians 13:8
    Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

    The time for these things to happen seem to be have been with the appostles and then they went out of the season for them happening.

    2 Timothy 4:2
    Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.

    As for the healing well unfortunately I think we must look to history testifying against it continuing and ending like the others did. I think it would have been noticed if christians could heal during wars and plagues throughout the centuries.

    The gifts were never a hidden thing unseen but done openly for all to see and wonder at when they happened. Jesus could heal anyone he chose whatever their circumstances. illness and situation he could even heal rotting 3 day old corpses which you know about in a hot country without cold morgues.

    When I see a TV evangelist saying he can heal but only on people where the healing is not noticiable and it's a hidden thing, done for the spectacal and show, so people will donate more money to him, I know his fruitage is not from God.

    The gifts are not meant to be the testimony to our faith being right. The fruitage is if we are following God and his son and the word he came to preach. and like the bereans we can test this with the bible.

    James 1:22-25 (New International Version)

    22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does.

    I believe Russell was a man who recognised the truth of god's word and got blessed because of it. How do I know satan didn't do this? that is a good question and again on fruitage on whether it is actually preaching God's word. the bereans knew this, did they look at the gifts or did they look to the words?

    Acts 17:11
    Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

    I know you only have a few posts left and appreciate the ones you have used on me, please do not be afraid to ask these questions of your study. She can answer them, she might need to go and research them so as to give you a fuller more biblical answer but that a good thing. I myself am having a refresher study and I ask really difficult questions :s It is allowed. I hope you do well with your studying

    I'm sorry if I missed or got wrong any points you made I have limited time so had to answer quickly.

    one final word having confidence in your Faith and belief is not a crime because we get it from God and his son and the words he brought.

    1 Thessalonians 2:13
    And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.

    Reniaa

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    My visiting witnesses said that the gifts were removed when Jesus left the earth.

    Even many Witnesses don't know their own doctrine well. I will pick on that statement. The book of ACTS OF THE APOSTLES is about how the apostles still had the gift beyond the time when Jesus left the earth. It is right there in the Bible. Now after they passed away, JW doctrine says the gift was gone. NOT JESUS, but the apostles.

    Forgive me but my understanding thus far of WT teachings is that no-one but JW's can have the Holy Spirit guiding them ...

    That is what they teach for today. But their shadowy teachings barely understood by anyone is that throughout the last two millenium, someone on earth has had some guidance from the Holy Spirit. But after C.T.Russell was used to reestablish true worship, the channel was only through the one group that Jesus chose in 1919 to be his representative on earth. I no longer believe this, as the book CAPTIVES OF A CONCEPT will demonstrate that JW doctrine on choosing the JW's would be flawed. But that's the general teaching.

    How did he therefore decide to use the Protestant rather than Catholic or Orthodox canons? I'm assuming now that he was a scholar rather than a prophet in that he was looking for the best answer, does anyone know if he considered other religions and churches?

    The Wikipedia link I gave you suggests that Russell looked into eastern religion and Islam, but chose otherwise. I don't know that much about that and you would have to really dig into the references they give for even a shred of proof. JW history is rewritten by them, so it cannot be depended on for reliability. On choosing the Protestant Bible, you have an excellent question that I have asked also. The WT literature just seems to accept the canon that is widely accepted by others then states that this is the accepted canon. It's as if Jehovah protected the most popular books, but forgot to protect the use of HIS name in the New Testament. Even the accepted canon refers to other books within itself that are considered apocryphal by WTS. I wish I had more on that.

    Others teach that authority has continued passing from one man to the next, even from catholic to protestant during the reformation times, yet others teach that their authority has been restored by visions and prophecy? What is the WT teaching or understanding on this?

    JW's hang their entire teaching on a parable of Jesus at Matthew 24:45 about the "faithful and discreet slave." Jesus chose them in 1919 and their literature says that they are the ones dispensing truth in the last days with the assignment to spread the warning. Proof is supposed to be in that they are the only ones doing it, they are the only ones with love among themselves, they are the only ones who recognize the time we live in, YADDA YADDA. They dismiss any work of any other groups, any love shown anywhere else, they even dismiss their own "faithful and discreet slave" totally ignoring them and say that a handful of men in Brooklyn (currently 9 of them) represent the entire group as their Governing Body.

  • Heaven
    Heaven

    Janey... Hi and welcome! I am glad you are asking questions and that you have no intentions of signing up as a JW. I studied as a child and teen back in the 1960's and 1970's. My 2 main reasons for not joining are:

    1) I do not agree with their interpretations of Bible scripture nor their ever changing doctrines.

    2) I do not agree with subjugation of women.

    My father is a Ministerial Servant of the Jehovah's Witnesses and has been baptized for 23 years. He has never been able to answer my questions.

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