letter of disassociation from a Christian

by reniaa 51 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • mdb
    mdb

    I knew I couldn't keep quiet...

    Quote:

    "I sometimes wonder what one appostle would feel if he could see what we are doing today? would he have any doubt we were in the 'last days' would he be horrified at what we watch on TV, how everything is sexualised how our children don't have the father's in a lot of cases to bring them up in God's way."

    Of even greater concern than this, God is discusted with it. Do you ever wonder what all John saw of the future when he wrote down Revelation, what visions of the future were all revealed to him? Some things he was told not to record and what he did see made him weap.

    The last days began when Christ came to this earth. We've been living in them since then. The date of 1914 is useless and means nothing.

    God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
    Hebrews 1:1-2

    Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.”
    2 Peter 3:1-4

    Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
    1 John 2:18

    Quote:

    "yes since 1914 in this I accept Jw teachings it makes sense, the same bible chronology led people to be expecting Jesus's arrival the first time"

    None (except a few) believed in Jesus' arrival the first time and even still they didn't understand it until after His death and resurrection. Being of no reputation, Jesus was the most unlikely King and everyone was expecting someone to come and reign as an earthly religious and political figure on the throne; to deliver them from the Roman empire. The Savior and the salvation He brought was not what the people were looking for.

    Here's something on the 1914 date you believe the Watchtower has so correctly prophecied about...

    Russell's Bible Students hailed 1874 as the year when Christ had returned, invisibly, and was presumed already ruling from heaven in their time. That was Russell's belief until his death in 1916. The 1874 parousia teaching remained with his successor, J.F. (Judge) Rutherford, for years to come. Ignoring their well-documented history, Watch Tower literature in later years has alluded countless times to Russell and his followers looking ahead to 1914 for Christ's invisible return to heaven, to support their present belief.

    Russell did predict a great event for 1914. Based on a Biblical interpretation that a 40-year generation must transpire from Christ's parousia until the "end of the world," Russell predicted that the "times of the gentiles" would end in the prophetic "battle of Armageddon" in that year (1914 being 40 years from 1874). When the war broke out in Europe, Russell believed it was the beginning of Armageddon. These are well documented in Watch Tower publications prior to 1914. Armageddon did not occur as expected yet, Russell maintained that the "gentile times" had ended in 1914. He died two years later. To this day, Jehovah's Witnesses stand firm on the belief that Russell correctly identified 1914 for fulfillment of the "end of the gentile times." It was over a decade later that the doctrine of Christ's return was changed, moving that event foreward to align with Russell's "end of the gentile times." That remains the Watch Tower's official doctrinal position, but the 1874 parousia of Christ doctrine continued to be preached in the Watch Tower, as seen here:

    The date of the close of that 'battle' is definitely marked in Scripture as October, 1914. It is already in progress, its beginning dating from October, 1874.
    Zion's Watch Tower, 15 January 1892, page 1355

    We see no reason for changing the figures--nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God's dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble.
    Zion's Watch Tower, 15 July 1894, page 1677

    The Scriptures show that the second presence [of the Lord] was due in 1874... This proof shows that the Lord has been present since 1874.
    The Watch Tower, 1 March 1923, page 67

    Surely there is not the slightest room for doubt in the mind of a truly consecrated child of God that the Lord Jesus is present and has been since 1874.
    The Watch Tower, 1 January 1924, page 5

    While this point is glossed over in Jehovah's Witnesses - Proclaimers of God's Kingdom, the astute reader will note at the top of page 47 that: "Barbour succeeded in convincing Russell that Christ's invisible presence had begun in 1874." And again, in the last paragraph on page 133 that: "...Russell also came to be persuaded that Christ's invisible presence had begun in 1874." This last statement contains a footnote reference which reads: *... A clearer understanding of Biblical chronology was published in 1943, in the book The Truth Shall Make you Free, and it was then refined the following year in the book The Kingdom Is at Hand, as well as in later publications.

    On pages 138-139 (Proclaimers book), the March 1, 1925 Watch Tower's feature article is quoted:

    A real milestone was reached, therefore, in 1925, when The Watch Tower of March 1 featured the article "Birth of the Nation." It presented an eye-opening study of Revelation chapter 12. The article set forth evidence that the Messianic Kingdom had been born--established--in 1914, that Christ had then begun to rule on his heavenly throne, and that thereafter Satan had been hurled from heaven down to the vicinity of the earth. This was the good news that was to be proclaimed, the news that God's Kingdom was already in operation. How this enlightened understanding stimulated these Kingdom proclaimers to preach to the ends of the earth!"

    Therefore, according to Jehovah's Witnesses own documentary, the 1914 Advent was not their teaching until the year 1925, eleven years after 1914. Even then it was evidently not a firm position for in the book Prophecy (published in 1929) on pages 65 and 66 it clearly states:

    The Scriptural proof is that the second presence of the Lord Jesus Christ began in 1874 A.D. This proof is specifically [spelled] out in the booklet entitled Our Lord's Return.

    In 1929 appeared the last mention, in the Watch Tower Society's publications, of 1874 as the year of Christ's parousia. The doctrinal change clearly had not yet been established to teach the 1914 "invisible return" of Christ until sometime after 1929. The shift from 1874 to 1914 for the parousia surfaced most notably in the mid-1930s. One might even get an impression for a later time from what Frederick Franz wrote in 1973 in the Society's book: God's Kingdom of a Thousand Years. On page 209, paragraph 55, he says:

    In the year 1943 the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society published the book The Truth Shall Make You Free. In its chapter 11, entitled "The Count of the Time," it did away with the insertion of 100 years into the period of the Judges and went according to the oldest and most authentic reading of Acts 13:20, and accepted the spelled-out numbers of the Hebrew Scriptures. This moved forward the end of six thousand years of man's existence to the decade of the 1970's. Naturally this did away with the year 1874 C.E. as the date of return of the Lord Jesus Christ and the beginning of his invisible presence or parousia.

    So we must ask, with all this history, what is the point of misleading statements about their 1914 teaching in later Watchtower literature? For example, the following quote is from a 1954 Watchtower which states:

    Why, then, do the nations not realize and accept the approach of this climax of judgment? It is because they have not heeded the world-wide advertising of Christ's return and his second presence. Since long before World War I Jehovah's witnesses pointed to 1914 as the time for this great event to occur.
    The Watchtower, 15 June 1954, page 370, para.4

    How could The Watchtower make such an untrue claim knowing full well that both prior to World War I and for at least 15 years thereafter they preached that "this great event" had occurred in 1874. Again in a 1965 Watchtower:

    As we look back over the years, we can clearly see how God's organization in modern times has progressed in understanding. For example, it learned that Christ's second presence was to be in the spirit, and not in the flesh as many professed Christians believe. His rule would be from the heavens. This was a new revelation of great importance to God's people who had been anxiously awaiting his second presence toward the end of the nineteenth century.
    The Watchtower, 15 July 1965, page 428, Jehovah's Advancing Organization

    Russell's followers were not "anxiously awaiting his second presence toward the end of the nineteenth century". They believed and preached that it had already occurred years past in 1874. In the May 1, 1988 Watchtower, on page 22, a Witness, Matsue Ishii, recalls her first encounter with the Bible Students in 1928:

    At the back of our house in Tojo-cho, Osaka, there was a house with a sign: "Osaka Branch of the International Bible Students Association." Assuming it to be a Christian group, I visited the house. "Do you believe in the second advent of the Lord?" I asked the young man who came to the door. "Christ's second advent was realized in 1914," he answered. In astonishment, I told him that was impossible. "You should read this book," he said, handing me The Harp of God. Yet, what does it say about this in The Harp of God? Beginning on page 235:

    This date, therefore, when understood, would certainly fix the time when the Lord is due at this second appearing. Applying the same rule, then, of a day for a year, 1335 days after 539 A.D. brings us to 1874 A.D., at which time according to Biblical chronology, the Lord's second presence is due... The searcher for truth can find an extensive treatment of this question in Volumes 2 and 3 of Studies in the Scriptures.

    Another long-time faithful Witness, Jack H. Nathan, recalls his first meeting with the Bible Students:

    After the war ended in 1918, there was no work available in England, so I rejoined the army and went off to India as part of the peacetime garrison. In May 1920 the malaria flared up again, and I was sent up into the hills to recuperate. There I read all the books I could get my hands on, including the Bible. Reading the Scriptures intensified my interest in the Lord's return. Months later, down in Kanpur, I started a Bible study group, hoping to learn more about the Lord's return. It was there that I met Fredrick James, a former British soldier who was now a zealous Bible Student. He explained to me that Jesus had been present since 1914, invisible to man. This was the most thrilling news I had ever heard."
    The Watchtower, 1 September 1990, page 11

    This fellow's recollection is also not supported by the Society's doctrinal history. His own account placed his experience in or about the year 1920, more than a decade before the Society switched their official doctrine of Christ's second coming from 1874 to 1914.
    It is not to question the integrity of the people who recall such personal experiences. Surely it was not their intention to confuse the details of their own story. Rather it illustrates the power of repetitious indoctrination over time to distort a person's recollection. But the real question here is how do such discrepancies get past the editors of the Watchtower? Are their writers and editors that unfamiliar with their own history, as published in their own literature or do even those who write the supposed spiritual nourishment from God themselves become subject to the mind alterating effects of their own indoctrination? Otherwise, how can such blatant misrepresentation be defined as anything less than dishonest? Yet does an organization, which claims to speak for the Almighty Sovereign of the Universe not bear a heavy responsibility to speak the truth?

    In conclusion, perhaps they have answered the question as well as anyone:

    A religion that teaches lies cannot be true."
    The Watchtower, 1 December 1991, page 7

  • mdb
    mdb

    posted twice.

  • boyzone
    boyzone
    yes since 1914 in this I accept Jw teachings it makes sense, the same bible chronology led people to be expecting Jesus's arrival the first time, also I look around me and see that we are heading towards self-destruction, our willful blindness to consequences is what will destroy us. we are to powerful.
    If some had said to us 10 years ago and bet some did the dangers of all the unlimited borrowing with the banks throwing money at us would lead to a worldwide recession would we have listened?
    We didn't listen and there are many things we are still not listening on, as we cut through the last of the rainforests and use all our earthly resources. Feeling safe in our current luxuries.

    Gee, I bet you're a scream at parties..

  • Vinny
    Vinny

    Reniaa writes: "I think this letter by thirdwitness aptly shows what I was trying to illustrate to cantleave on another thread, that we can attack imperfection and make it an excuse for our own issues. Reniaa"

    **** And I SPANKED Thirdwitless on many threads for this laughable nonsense.

    Since Reniaa wants to post Thridwitless sorry nonsense attempt to justify Watchtower's mistakes, I'll just post MY REPLY to Thridwitless sorry nonsense trying to justify all Watchtowers mistakes..

    (After all, we sure do agree that Watchtower has all kinds of sorry mistakes).

    Poor Thirdwitless. It's time to take porr thirdwitless BACK TO THE WOODSHED . He cries that God is with WT-world despite all the mistakes and embarrassments costing JW lives, JW careers, JW families, JW prison time, and more. Our Poor little Thirdwitless is in sad shape. He says David made mistakes now. But God was with David. So that means God is with WT world ONLY , but not with any other christian religion or people of those religions regardless of how spiritual or devoted to God and Christ they are today. ONLY (((THE JW'S))) GET THIS FREE PASS TODAY. HOW BOUT THAT! With powerful reasoning like this, there must be a LOOONG line to sign up for new JW's. But where are they. I don't see them here in Topix. Maybe they are all sleeping. Maybe they are watchinhg movies today. Everybody makes mistakes personally. As I have said many times. But WT land goes FAR BEYOND JUST MAKING MISTAKES (((PERSONALLY))). They (((COLLECTIVELY))) ---- ((((( PUBLISH )))) those mistakes, ((((( AS "FOOD FROM GOD" ))))) --THEN force them on all JW's,-- WITH THREAT OF DISFELLOWSHIPPING-- and and then say God is directing ONLY them. BWAAAHAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH You just gotta love that. HERE IS PROOF THEY BELIEVE GOD USES ONLY THEM AND THAT WT-WORLD HAS BEEN AND IS TODAY HIS CHANNEL. Just READ FOR YOURSELF folks: 1919 "Is not the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society the one and only channel which the Lord has used in dispensing his truth continually since the beginning of the harvest period?" {WT Apr 1 1919 6414} 1933 "To feed or teach his people the Lord has used the Watch Tower publications.. No man is given any credit for the wonderful truths which the Lord has revealed to his people through the Watch Tower publications." {WT Dec 1 1933 263} 1939 "It should be expected that the Lord would have a means of communicating to his people on the earth, and he has clearly shown that the magazine called The Watchtower is used for that purpose." {YEAR 1939 85} (A PERSONAL FAV BELOW) 1942 "The Watchtower does not consist of men's opinions" {WT Jan 1 1942 5} ( you have to love that one) -another Golden gem- 1957 "Jehovah has established a very definite channel of communication through which he deals with his people .. It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the 'slave' as we would to the voice of God." {WT Jun 15 1957 370} " As the voice of God"...(I am not making this stuff up). 1969 "Jehovah's organization as directed by his 'faithful and discreet slave' class should influence our every decision also.{WT March 15, 1969 172} "Should influence our every decision also" (It's in print. I did not invent this stuff. I couldn't even if I tried. Sorry.) 1979 [Of those living at the time of Armageddon, only Jehovah's Witnesses will be saved] {WT Feb 15 1979 30} Watchtower 9/15/93 page 22 : "But if we were to draw away from Jehovah's organization, there would be NO PLACE ELSE TO GO FOR SALVATION".. How about that one! SEPTEMBER 1996 Kingdom Ministry Page 1 paragraph 3 Walk by Faith We must also be firmly persuaded that Jehovah is leading us by means of his visible organization under the direction of “the faithful and discreet slave.”(Matt. 24:45-47) We demonstrate our faith when we are “obedient to those who are taking the lead” in the congregation.(Heb. 13:17) Humbly working in cooperation with the theocratic arrangement manifests our trust in Jehovah. SEPTEMBER 1, 2004 Watchtower magazine Pages 17-18 paragraph 18 Beware of “the Voice of Strangers” Obeying Jehovah’s voice also means obeying Jesus’ voice, for Jehovah himself told us to do so.(Matthew 17:5) What does Jesus, the Fine Shepherd, tell us to do? He teaches us to make disciples and (((to trust “the faithful and discreet slave)))).” NOVEMBER 15, 2002 Watchtwoer magazine Page 23 "How Can We Make Our Days Count Before Jehovah? Daily reading of the Bible and Bible-based publications provided by “the faithful and discreet slave” DEMONSTRATES OUR WILLINGNESS TO LISTEN TO GOD AS HE SPEAKS TO US". ***** There is is folks, IN PRINT. "IS NOT THE WT BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY THE ONE AND ONLY CHANNEL THE LORD HAS USED." "THE WT MAGAZINE IS GOD'S MEANS OF COMMUNICATING WITH HIS PEOPLE ON THE EARTH" "THE WT DOES NOT CONSIST OF MEN'S OPINIONS" "WE SHOULD RESPOND TO JEHOVAH'S VERY DEFINITE CHOSEN CHANNEL AS THE VOICE OF GOD" "THE FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE CLASSS SHOULD INFLUENCE OUR EVERY DECISION" "WE MUST FIRMLY BELIEVE JEHOVAH IS LEADING US MY MEANS OF THE FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE AND BE OBEDIENT" "DAILY READING THE BIBLE AND WT PUBLICATIONS DEMONSTRATES OUR WILLINGNESS TO LISTEN TO GOD AS HE SPEAKS TO US". ***** No other way to interpret it folks. The problem is..... that following the WT Society this has led to much PAIN AND SUFFERING, DEATH, EMBARRASSMENTS, LOST OPPORTUNITIES, BROKEN FAMILIES UNFAIR SHUNNING AND WORSE!!! Sorry Thirdwitless and other poor little JW's, but God was never behind any of THIS: http://www1.tip.nl/~t661020/wtcitaten/part2.htm You see, thirdwitlesss says that the holy spirit revealed their mistakes and they changed up on them afterwards. But like I already DROPPED IN HIS LAP, many changes were because they had no choice but to change since many of their PUBLISHED WRITINGS never came true. 1925 for example. LETS TAKE ANOTHER LITTLE WT STROLL WITH THIRDWITLESS ABOUT 1925: (thirdwitlesss sure don't like these strolls does he?) 1918 "Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews 11, to the condition of human perfection." Millions Now Living Will Never Die, page 89. 1922 "The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the Scriptures than 1914." The Watchtower 9/1/22, page 262. Once again, as with the 1914 date, the revelation was attributed to "God Himself". 1922 This chronology is not of man, but of God. Being of divine origin and divinely corroborated, present-truth chronology stands in a class by itself, absolutely and unqualifiedly correct ...(Watchtower, July 15, 1922, p. 217) 1923 "Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge." The Watchtower, page 106 4-23. 1925- "We have no doubt whatever in regard to the chronology relating to the dates of .. 1925.. What further evidence do we need? Using this same measuring line .. it is an easy matter to locate 1925, probably in the fall, for the beginning of the antitypical jubilee. There can be no more question about 1925 than there was about 1914." {WT May 15 1922 page 150} 1925- "The year 1925 is here. With great expectation Christians have looked forward to this year. Many have confidently expected that all members of the body of Christ will be changed to heavenly glory during this year. This may be accomplished. It may not be. In his own due time God will accomplish his purposes concerning his people. Christians should not be so deeply concerned about what may transpire this year." The Watchtower, 1/1/25, page. 3. 1925 "It is to be expected that Satan will try to inject into the minds of the consecrated, the thought that 1925 should see an end to the work." The Watchtower, Sept, 1925 p262 ** *** Yep all this, IN WRITING, about 1925. Now, did the light get brighter Thirdwitless? NOPE! NOT AT ALL. So then what happened Thirdwitless? Here is what happened. 1925 .... CAME..... AND.... WENT!!!!! Now we can all see how this ruins WT claims that light got brighter and that God was behind any of these PUBLISHED WT TEACHINGS. All they were was big EMBARRASSMENTS and laughable. But it got worse! Notice how WT world tried to lay the blame on those poor little JW's: 1926 The Watchtower, page 232. "Some anticipated that the work would end in 1925, but the Lord did not state so. The difficulty was that the friends inflated their imaginations beyond reason; and that when their imaginations burst asunder, they were inclined to throw away everything." (AM AZINGLY, THE WATCHTOWER ACTUALLY BLAMES THE JW'S, "INFLATED IMAGINATIONS", WITH THAT ONE). BUT IT STILL GOT WORSE AGAIN!!! Then came good ole BETH SARIM!!! W ant me to quote all that too? (awwwww ..... WHY NOT!) March 15, 1930 San Diego Sun: "San Diego Mansion -- With All Modern Improvements -- Awaits Earthly Return of Prophets." Jan 9, 1931 San Diego Sun, "David's House Waits for Owner." A reporter asked Rutherford how he thought those ancient men would look and he replied he thought they would arrive in frock coats, high hats, canes and spats! Perhaps due to the embarrassment of such a ridiculous statement, a year later in 1932, the booklet, "What You Need" showed an illustration of those old prophets in ancient garb. It wasn't the first time JFR would stick his foot in his mouth. Nor was it the last. This same newspaper article stated that in the garage, "stands a new, yellow 16-cylinder coupe which will be turned over to the rulers along with all the personal property of the place." (The end never came, the "ancient worthies" never resurrected and Beth-Sarim was quietly sold in 1947.) But just like 1914 and 1925 BETH SARIM ...... CAME... AND.... WENT. See we can go on and on. Many things like these never had new light at all. Their published writings simply NEVER CAME TRUE. And here is the other problem for thirdwitless and his laughable "refining claims". How can God refine a bad idea for the JW's, but at the very same time lead them to NEW BAD IDEAS? Explain that one thirdwitless? For example, if in 1980 God was "refining" the sorry Organ Transplant is CANNIBALISM WT embarrassment deal. Then how could he allow THIS AFTERWARDS: "The apostle Paul was spearheading the Christian missionary activity. He was also laying a foundation for a work that would be completed in our 20th century." {WT Jan 1 1989 12} [bound volume changed "20th century" to "day"] ".. there are many indications that 'the end' is much closer than that [the turn of the century]" {WT Mar 1 1984 18-9} "Shortly, within our twentieth century, the 'battle in the day of Jehovah' will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom." {TNSK 216} "For the year 2000, I visualize a world transformed into a beautiful paradise! But I don't think that either the present world or its rulers will live to see that day.. We are living in the last days of the system of things." {AWAK Nov 8 1986 78} **** Once again Poor thirdwitless gets taken to the woodshed. His sorry JW attempts to excuse all those mistakes is DEAD ON ARRIVAL. Yep, that would be the same DEAD ON ARRIVAL as all that WT embarrassments were when they first came off the presses D.O.A.. G od was never behind any of it! Poor thirdwitless Poor woodshed. Life is tough. Vinny

  • Vinny
  • Vinny
    Vinny

    (More Replies for Reniaa's sorry Thirdwitless quote )

    Just more of the same sorriness from Thirdwitless. This is so boring now. Thirdwitless has had all of his lame and embarrassing arguments completely TROUNCED. THIRDWITLESS AND HIS SORRY LAUGHABLE EMBARRASSING WT ARGUMENTS HAVE BEEN COMPLETELY TROUNCED (((AND BURIED!!!))) So deep that obedient little JW's with truck load of shovels have no hope of finding thirdwitless. HE HAS BEEN BURIED THAT DEEP. Just read the thread folks. Repeated for emphasis: JUST READ THIS THREAD. But you see thirdwitless still laughably clings to JW's have "the Truth" nonsense. Even though he has been trounced and buried so deep in the ground that JW's with truck loads of shovels can't find him. Thirdwitless can't refute the facts proving JW's are not used by God that have been DROPPED IN HIS LAP --MANY TIMES NOW--. Thirdwitless cannot prove his JW's are used by God ... FOR ANYTHING AT ALL! Not even one thing. Let's see what NEW laughable quotes we get from thirdwitles today: Thirdwitless says:.. "1)‘Gods people’, led by his "spirit", was teaching doctrine that they believed to be true thru many years of reseach and study of God's word." ***** Can somebody tell us how JW's have been lead by God's "spirit", as thirdwitless says, when those many decisions reached proved to be WRONG? AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN. IF GOD'S SPIRIT WAS LEADING THE JW'S THEN THE TEACHINGS WOULD NOT JUST BE (((((BELIEVED))))) TO BE TRUE... THEY WOULD IN FACT (((((BE TRUE))))). I guess God's "spirit", that was prayed for by the JW's just wasn't up to the task those days, eh thirdwitless? I guess God just purposely MISLEAD all those JW's so that later on God could "refine" them. Is that what happened thirdwitless? God must have MADE THE JW'S GET THINGS WRONG, so God could refine and cleanse them later on so folks like thirdwitless can say things like, " see how many things JW's got wrong? This proves JW's are God's channel" BWAAAAAAAAAAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH With powerful logic like this from thirdwitless who needs Vinny? Or anybody else? Poor thirdwitless and poor JW's. What a mess they have on their hands today. Got an extra week free, then just enjoy some more of this: http://www1.tip.nl/%7Et661020/wtcitaten/part1.htm Yep God's spirit was sure with those JW's alright! The printed page tells it like it is. Printed WT Pages are the JW's BIGGEST PROBLEM TODAY. Thirdwitless then says:... "2) When they realized they were wrong thru continued study and following the leadings of God's spirit, the WT then "corrected" it to their new understanding to what they believed to be correct." ***** Folks you gotta love sorry JW's like thirdwitless. He is still lost in space somewhere. When are you coming back to earth? What doe you mean when you say "they realized they were wrong". You already stated that "God's spirit" was leading them in point number 1 when they made those poor decisions and PUBLISHED ALL THOSE BAD DECISIONS AS FOOD FROM GOD HIMSELF. You see, thirdwitless says that JW's were, "led by God's spirit" in his point number 1 quoted above. Just read it. But then that same "God's spirit" leading JW's obviously must have misled those JW's. Cause JW's sure got lots of things wrong and embarrassed themselves too many times to count. JUST TAKE A LOOK: http://www1.tip.nl/%7Et661020/wtcitaten/part1.htm And now in point number 2 thirdwitless says that same "God's spirit" now corrected those wrong embarrassing things that the same spirit was leading them to do in point 1. Does thirdwitless see the problems he has with his own statements? (Hope Reniaa is paying attention)

    Thirdwitless says God's spirit led the JW's when they published embarrassing things and mistakes. Thirdwitless NOWSAYS God's spirit helped JW's correct those embarrassing things and mistakes that God's spirit lead them to make. Folks this is exactly why thirdwitless has folks like Topsey say, "Nope the JW's aint for me". And Gareth say nope I aint a JW either. And Topsey's wife now says nope not for me too. And not one EX-JW that I have every heard to go running back to the organization. You see Thirdwitles, you must not be doing a very good job on Topix. And one look at this thread shows just how sorry thirdwitless defense of the JW's is. Cause Thirdwitless is doing a very poor job on this site explaining JW mistakes. He IGNORESs all the facts placed in his lap. Many pages worth. He instead tries to say that since some bible folks made mistakes that JW's are proven to be God's organization. This is completely WORTHLESS. As has been proven many times now. Maybe we can change thirdwitness name to badwitness ... or lostwitness... poorwitness... nowitness... missingwitness... buriedwitness..... sadwityness... spankedwitness.... He has been so badly buried that no JW's with trucks of shovels can't find him. Yet Thirdwitness continues:.. . "3) and then the WT/JW refers to this "correction" to something else, as a “refining” because that is what God's word prophesied about his people and refers to it as," ****** So folks let's all do a little math from thirdwitless! 1- According to thirdwitless, "God's spirit" is with the JW's while they make decisions based on God's infallible word. 2- Those decisions are wrong again and again and again. Proving embarrassing mistakes for WT world, causing people to lose out on many things like buying homes, getting education, not having families, kids, pets, not being of 144,00, and more. Those decisions led by the same "God's spirit" also cause some JW's to (((DIE))) and to go (((TO PRISON))) for no reason for many years including RIGHT NOW. 3- AND NOW, According to thirdwitless, because many of these things were wrong, thirdwitless says it proves God is with JW's because they changed some of them now which means (to thirdwitless) that God is refining the jW's. Only thirdwitless does not deal with the FACTS that WT world is wrong RIGHT NOW on many things. Only THirdwitless says this "refining" thing that must be happening a lot to JW (cause they sure got lots O' things wrong) does not apply to any other sincere Christians or Christian denominations. Only thirdwitness does not admit that some things they changed because THEY HAD NO CHOICE BUT TO CHANGE!!! 1914 came and went. 1925 came and went. Beth Sarim (was huge WT embarrassment) and came and went. 1975 came and went. The generation of 1914 came and went. The 20th century came and went. Vaccinations stomped out polio, diptheria, tetanus, flu, cholera, measles, mumps, yellow fever, rubella and more. Organ transplants were never the same as "cannibalism" as Wt land stated and have saved or extended hundreds of thousands of lives. Many times dropped doctrinal understanding has been brought back. That aint not "light getting brighter" folks. That's called BLINKING LIGHTS. You see this is why Thirdwitness is fighting a losing battle. The WT was never God's anything. One look at the whole picture proves this without a doubt to any rational mind. But change is tough for some. It is not easy to say the truth for some JW's. That WT land is not what they say about themselves. That there is NO PROOF ANYWHERE that supports God has been using WT Society. In fact there is a MOUNTAIN OF PROOF that God has never used them: http://www1.tip.nl/%7Et661020/wtcitaten/part1.htm Deal with that for a while thirdwitless and JW's. For example: Was God's spirit with WT when they said Organ Transplants was a "conscience" matter in 1961? Was God"s spirit with WT when they then said organ transplants are same as "cannibalism" in 1967? Or was God's spirit with WT when they said Organ Transplants are NOT the same as cannibalism in 1980? Was God behind all those changes each time? Did (((GOD))) get all those things wrong each time? Did God cause folks TO DIE by listening to the WT Society as the voice of God? AND THIS IS JUST ONE THING!!! We can do this same song and dance THOUSANDS OF TIMES. Yet thirdwitless has no answers except to say that these mistakes PROVE God is with wt world AND THAT IS IT. Even though ,as already proven a few lines above, many things WT changed because they HAD NO CHOICE BUT TO CHANGE. And when his sorry excuses saying it's okay for WT to make AND PUBLISH all those bad ideas is TROUNCED AND BURIED we get nothing in reply. And that would be because thirdwitless CAN'T REPLY!!! That's how bad defending WT world has become. Just telling you how it is once again. You cannot defend this sorry WT history along with numerous CURRENT bad policies. ALL OF YOUR ATTEMPTS HAVE BEEN TROUNCED. This is how it will always be THirdwitness. You will always be running backwards defending the JW religion. Which is why sometimes folks like me will show up and do the WT smackdown thing to people like you Thirdwitness. Which after one look at this thread, can be easily concluded is some easy thing to do! THE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY IS NOT GOD'S ANYTHING. Sooner or later you will just have to face the music. All the best, Vinny

  • Vinny
    Vinny

    Poor JW's like Reniaa think that JW's are God's "chosen ones" today.


    But as a "COLLECTIVE GROUP" (((THIS))) IS WT SOCIETY'S BABY:


    http://www1.tip.nl/%7Et661020/wtcitaten/part1.htm


    Yep, they own that baby FOR LIFE!


    Is all WT land's exclusively. Instead of God's channel exclusively, as JW's says, they are the owner of THAT SORRY LIST-- "EXCLUSIVELY"!!!!.


    BIG DIFFERENCE FOLKS.


    As a "COLLECTIVE GROUP" they met together and prayed over many things THAT PROVED BAD NEWS AND EMBARRASSMENTS AND EVEN CAUSED MANY JW'S ((((( TO DIE ))))).


    As a "COLLECTIVE GROUP" they had to DROP, REVERSE, CHANGE-UP ON AND APOLOGIZE FOR many sorry teachings and beliefs that should never have been forced on porr little JW's that blindly followed this same collective group.


    You see JW's as are spinning their wheeels in the mud all over again.


    Nobody buys this kind of nonsense.


    You see (as has been posted too many times to remember now) PEOPLE--(((INDIVIDUALLY)))-- do make mistakes.


    Even bible writers, apostles and prophets make personal mistakes.


    But COLLECTIVELY--(AS A GROUP OF WRITINGS)-- many people say the bible writings are directed by God.


    The bible writers also say this about their writings.


    Which is why the bible is not just "some good book", and nothing more to most people. But is instead followed and applied in life because people say bible writers get things RIGHT ALL THE TIME.


    You see WT world also has individuals that make mistakes personally. I have no problems with this. Even GB members will fall very short. That's life!


    But you see folks, here where there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between making mistakes personally, and then posting mistakes COLLECTIVELY AS A UNIFIED BODY:


    When the Governing Body meets ((((( COLLECTIVELY AS A BODY )))) ---


    AND THEN PRAYS TOGETHER FOR HOLY SPIRIT  ((((( COLLECTIVELY AS A BODY )))))---


    STUDIES WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ON SPECIFIC ISSUES ((((( COLLECTIVELY AS A BODY ))))) ---

    MAKES DECISIONS BASED ON THOSE PRAYERS AND THEIR BIBLE UNDERSTANDING AFTER MUCH THOUGHT, PRAYER AND DELIBERATION ---


    AND THEN (((PUBLISHES))) THOSE DECISIONS IN THEIR LITERATURE ---


    HAVE C.O.'S AND D.O.'S GIVE OUTLINES BASED ON THESE SAME DECISIONS AT MEETINGS, ASSEMBLIES AND CONVENTIONS PUSHING AND CLARIFYING THESE PUBLISHED TEACHINGS ON JW'S ---


    AND THEN HAVE RANK AND FILE JW'S (((BE FORCED TO APPLY))) ALL OF THESE NEW UNDERSTANDINGS AND JW TEACHINGS AT RISK OF JUDICIAL COUNSEL AND DISFELLOWSHIPPING .


    ONLY THEN TO BE PROVEN WRONG, BAD IDEAS, EMBARRASSMENTS; HAVE TO CHANGE THEM, DROP THEM, APOLOGIZE FOR THEM AND MORE ----


    IT CLEARLY PROVES THAT GOD WAS NEVER BEHIND THESE IDEAS OR WITH THOSE THAT MADE THEM AND FORCED THEM AT ALL!!!


    JW's have lost on this thread once again.


    They all get embarrassed trying to defend all this WT humiliation.

    Poor Reniaa. Next time think twice before posting such sorry nonsense.

    You just keep losing Reniaa.

    But get used to it.

    Life defending JW's is sure one rough road.

    Aloha,

    Vinny

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    hi vinny

    ad hominen a close friend of yours?

    I find attacking then just dwelling on old wt's a very poor debating technique, I also find people that need to do declaritive statements on beating someone had the exact opposite happen.

    Reniaa

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    Reniaa, your posting that nonsense is your own ad hominem attack on yourself. Vinny simply pointed out the how the post's contents show the WT was never associated with God. Old Wts are very relevant when refuting the WTs claims- as those very teachings were what Jesus supposedly looked at when inspecting all the world's relgions and found the IBS to be his FDS. And they revela something very damning to the WTs self-proclaimed status- false prophecies galore.

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    Vinny,

    You did a fine job and asked some very great, pertinent questions that hopefully lurkers will see and ask themselves relative to the GBs claimto be God's appointed FDS.

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