My email discussions with a JW (part I)

by AjaxMan 22 Replies latest jw friends

  • AjaxMan
    AjaxMan

    I thought that I'd share with you, I welcome feedbacks from all of you on what do you think. I will set other threads from my email discussions with that particular JDub.

    I will show you the questions that I asked him and the response that he gave me:
    My Question: He said that salvation comes from both grace and works. I asked him if salvation comes from works then Why did God send JesusChrist to die for our sins? Also, I added that if salvation comes from works, then JesusChrist died in vain?

    His response:
    Yes, God did send Jesus to die for our sins, and I certainly hope it wasn't in vain! Acts 24:15 actually speaks of a resurrection for the righteous and the unrighteous. Those that are righteous are resurrected to life, the unrighteous to judgment. In other words, God gives us all a chance.
    Hebrews 10:26 says, "For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left."
    In other words, if we know the truth, and keep sinning on purpose, then Jesus sacrifice won't help us.
    Jesus' sacrifice covers a multitude of sins, but it's on us to try our hardest not to.
    Jesus' sacrifice certainly isn't in vain, because it gives EVERYONE a chance.

    What do you all think about his statement?

    I will post my next question(s)to him and his responses if you all like. Otherwise, you can tell me Not to post anything.

    Ajax

    I am not a JW, Never Was and Never Will Be!
  • Escargot
    Escargot

    I agree with your friend. It is a balance, even Jesus set the example with works and faith, like his followers!

  • Unclepenn1
    Unclepenn1

    Ajax, I am so glad you posted this. Let me give you what I believe the Bible *clearly* says about salvation.

    Jw's teach > Faith + Works = Justification

    The Bible teaches > Faith = Justification + Works

    Faith in Jesus Christ *is* salvation. That salvation produces in the believer, much fruit or good works. If there is no evidence of fruit in the persons life, then they don't have saving faith, just a said faith.

    >Hebrews 10:26 says, "For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left."

    Every cult I have encountered that has a works/righteousness salvation uses this scripture. And all of them misuse it and twist it. The writer of Hebrews is writing to Jews and explaining to them that if they reject Christ and continue in their sin, they can no longer go back to the old sacrificial system. There is *no more sacrifice for sins*.

    Ask you friend to explain John 5:24 in light of current Watchtower teaching. Ask him what it means to 'not be in judgement' or 'have eternal life'.

    Penn

  • Escargot
    Escargot

    I agree with Unclepenn1, to a point. However, a christian's not being under works of law does not make him lawless. God's provision should transform our service to a higher standard, not less. I refer to the Book of James regarding how God looks on us if we do not have a balance of both. It is the motivating force that makes the difference!

  • AjaxMan
    AjaxMan

    If by salvation by works means having to go door-to-door proselytizing as well as following rigid rules such as the ones imposed by the WBTS, then all of us will be doomed because it is difficult trying accomplish all of these rules. Admit it, as hard as you work trying to accomplish these rules, it will never be enough either to the society or to you. Therefore, creating that guilt trip. I don't know about you fellows, but having that guilt trip is certainly not a good feeling to live with. If living with a guilt trip is part of salvation, then that is one thing I sure don't want.

    Ajax

    I am not a JW, Never Was and Never Will Be!

  • AjaxMan
    AjaxMan

    BTW,
    UnclePenn1 and Escargot, thanks for your postings.

    However, Escargot, can you specifically describe what types of works are needed for salvation?

    Ajax

    I am not a JW, Never Was and Never Will Be!

  • Trevor Scott
    Trevor Scott

    Ajax,

    My view:

    It seems to me that if salvation were something earned, then the sacrifice of Jesus was wholly unnecessary.

    The act of wilful sinning (Heb 10:26) is a rejection of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ - or maybe I should say it is a manifestation of a rejection of Jesus' sacrifice. It is the rejection of Christ's sacrifice that leads to a "fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." (verse 27)

    This is made clear in verse 28, when the writer draws a parallel to the law of Moses:

    "Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses."

    The act of sinning, under the law covenant, was a rejection of that law covenant. In the same way, wilful sinning while under the new covenant (the blood of Jesus) is a rejection of the new covenant, a rejection of Christ's sacrifice. Notice verse 29:

    "How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?"

    To practise sin wilfully is to reject the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. To reject the sacrifice of Christ leads to a "fearful expectation of judgement."

    Verse 10 clearly shows that we are made holy by the sacrifice of Christ, not works:

    "And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all"

    The entire eleventh chapter of Hebrews is devoted to salvation through faith in the sacrifice of Christ. Notice verse 13-16:

    "All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country--a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them."

    It was their faith, not their works, by which they attained salvation.

    Notice chapter 12 verse 25:

    "See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven?"

    You should also note Titus 3:5:

    "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, (6) whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,"

    and Romans 3:20-28:

    "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law."

    TS,

    Did the Watchtower Society "support" the scarlet beast of Revelation?
    : http://www.geocities.com/watchtowersociety/beast.htm

  • Escargot
    Escargot

    """"Escargot, can you specifically describe what types of works are needed for salvation?""""

    No, I can't!! that is between you and God! However, here are some Bible Based commands/guidelines that I try to follow:

    1. Love God with your whole heart and mind.-JC

    2. Love your neighbor as yourself.- JC

    3. An “acceptable form of worship” is looking after widows and orphans.- James, brother of Jesus, see Book of James.

    4. Also, I know I cannot “enter the kingdom of heaven” if I am any of those things discussed at 1COR 9:11-13.- Apostle Paul

    As stated, we are not under law, yet we are not lawless.

    AJAXman, I agree, the man made JW pressure is wrong and not bible based!

  • AjaxMan
    AjaxMan

    TJ,

    Thanks. My view seems to agree with you. You can correct me if you'll disagree with me.
    My view is that salvation is through grace because JesusChrist did all the works for us by sacrificing for us. That is the gift that is given to us for salvation. If we willfully sinned, we did not accept that gift. I do think our works will be to choose to accept or reject that gift.

    Ajax

    I am not a JW, Never Was and Never Will Be!

  • AjaxMan
    AjaxMan

    Escargot,

    Thanks for clarifying that.

    Ajax

    I am not a JW, Never Was and Never Will Be!

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