regular dub vs. 144K dub

by ellderwho 18 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  ellderwho

  elderwho: yes the ransom was of greater value to the 144 000 as they are considered heirs alongside with christ - they are his brothers & sisters, kings & priests just as christ is king & priest. Regular dubs, by association with his brothers, have the hope of being part of the great crowd that stream to the throne.

  How was the ransom greater? Any scripture for that?

  As for them changing into spirit form - nothing is impossible for Jehovah, he can do anything as he is god almighty -

  My point is something has to be generated from within the body. How can they change into a spirit being if there is not a spirit to begin with? Im not concerned with what God is capable of doing.

  Appointed to die: I think that scripture carries on to say "appointed to die once..." not too sure. The witnesses can interperate that to mean a spiritual death and not literal. Remember they are pretty good at choosing what is figurative and what is literal and will have their sneaky ways of "proving" this.

  The wages of sin is death. All have sinned and fallen short. Logically all will die. There is no escaping this death.
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  LouBelle

  ellderwho: There is a scripture that does indicate that these are heirs - for the life of me I don't know what it is. The witnesses however then interperate everything else there own way.

  The body will be transformed into spirit, so would something have to be genreated?? - they may use the transfiguration for a reference??

  All will die ... yes, but they will come back with "millions that will never die" There is scripture that speaks about not seeing death - so they will reason that this death then could be a figurative death and not a literal one.

  just trying to throw you the arguments a JW would.
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  ellderwho

  yadda

  Interesting questions.

  On your first question, I think JW's would say that those who are resurrected to heaven are created anew into spirit beings from God's memory. The JW's teach that all the dead are merely in God's memory, like a gigantic memory bank of everyone's DNA and personality blueprint I guess you could say, and when they are resurrected (to either heaven or earth) they are 'recreated'. There is no need for anything deathless in the body to survive for this to happen, JW's would say. I think the JW's view on this is pretty reasonable.

  Gods memory? I guess that would be the good memories, not the vile sinful thought patterns of a imperfect human. Any scripture that might come close to those ideas? So in the end the original human is replaced by a replica. Also the replica(clone) will be loaded with the capability to sin again. (during the 1000 years)

  Im no art collector. But I could tell you the value of a replica verses the original. Any scripture for those ideas?

  As for your question about earthly survivors of Armageddon, their answer would be that only those who are under the ransom can survive. JW's would say these ones are the Great Crowd who survive because of having white robes washed in the blood of the lamb.

  My point again is that anyone who survives Armageddon is in direct contradiction of Pauls words regarding sin and the wages of it. If that person survives Armageddon and makes it through to the end of the 1000 years, he would have escaped death resulting in scripture being null and void.

  What is perhaps a better question is why should everyone else who dies at Armageddon not receive a resurrection back to earth. What difference does the timing of their death make? It would be grossly unfair for God to resurrect billions who died before Armageddon but not those who die during Armageddon (unless they have committed the unforgiveable sin).

  See above

  But you make a good point though, which I think proves that everyone must die at Armageddon who is not covered by the ransom (BUT they will get a second chance by resurrection back to earth).

  Your missing the point, makes no difference regarding the ransom. You still have to die.
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  ellderwho

  just trying to throw you the arguments a JW would.

  Thats cool

  Hopefully a lurkers will see the holes in there scripture-less doctrine they force feed the new studies.
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  Deputy Dog

  ew

  As we've discussed before, the thief crucified/impaled with Christ really gets a pass.

  Tenebreux brings up a really good point. What about the Nephilim? They have a dual nature, angel/human hybred. I wonder what their response would be if you combine that with "What came down from heaven?"and What's going back up?
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  yadda yadda 2

  Elderwho, I don't think JW's would say those resurrected to heaven lose their memories of sin and knowledge of what sin is. The difference is they die and have thus paid the wages of sin but they are resurrected with a spirit body, which is not subject to Adamic sin. And so no longer with fleshly bodies under the curse of Adamic sin and death, they are now perfect, like angels, but with the same essential personality and memories. I know this is not explicitly set out in scripture though.

  As for the second point, I think it has everything to do with the ransom. You are taking Romans 6.23 in absolute isolation but we must take the context into consideration. The scriptures talk about the power of the ransom to extinguish Adamic sin and death and for Christians to 'pass over from death to live' and suchlike. Admittedly though that is only in relation to the heavenly resurrection because that was the 'hope' of all early Christians.

  But I can see how it can be argued that humans on earth can only be bought back to perfection after having first died, since the purpose of the ransom scripturally is nearly always linked to release the dead from from Hades. The NT reads that the purpose of the ransom is resurrection. You could probably make a good scriptural case for that, depending on whether you argue that the 'great crowd' is a heavenly class or earthly class that 'passes through' the Great Tribulation (Rev 7).
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  ellderwho

  Elderwho, I don't think JW's would say those resurrected to heaven lose their memories of sin and knowledge of what sin is. The difference is they die and have thus paid the wages of sin but they are resurrected with a spirit body, which is not subject to Adamic sin.

  Ive heard this before, I think its amazing that doctrine is built upon no scriptural backing whatsoever. Lets see, memories resurrected and placed into a spiritual body/being? And they have a hard time considering the trinity as a mystery?
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  Deputy Dog

  ew

  Gods memory? I guess that would be the good memories, not the vile sinful thought patterns of a imperfect human. Any scripture that might come close to those ideas? So in the end the original human is replaced by a replica. Also the replica(clone) will be loaded with the capability to sin again. (during the 1000 years)

  Im no art collector. But I could tell you the value of a replica verses the original. Any scripture for those ideas?

  Would a good question be, what's the difference between being changed a being replaced?

  1Co 15:51

  Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
  
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  oompa

  ellderwho: Since the great crowd dub has to work and wait for perfection does this mean Christs' ransom was of greater value for the 144K?

  yes it does....that is why it is called a "higher calling".....and a "greater reward"......so christs ransom is of greater value to these few picked out of the billions and billions of non-flying man....is still ripped off that i was never given a chance to fly, since i was told the doors to heaven were shut in 1935....and now they are back open.....dang it that is just not fair!......oompa could have been one of the annointed!

  elderwho: Also regarding armageddon, is the fact that making it through to the "new system" alive is in direct contradiction of what the Bible teaches as far as the wages of sin being death. And all men are appointed to die.

  No....that is the whole point of jesus being a ransom sacrifice....those saved at armageddon get to receive the full value of the sacrifice once he FINALLY gets everything done.....geeze what the hell has he been doing since 1914??.....some king....this kindom sucks..........

  cameo: Even so, the Flood was not effective if indeed that was the purpose of it. Genesis 6:4 reveals that there were still Nephilim on the earth even after the flood.

  (Genesis

  6:4)4 The Neph´i·lim proved to be in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of the [true] God continued to have relations with the daughters of men and they bore sons to them, they were the mighty ones who were of old, the men of fame.

  cameo, i dont think you can make the argument about the neph being around after the flood....because acording to the previous verses, the "in those days" means when the earths population first began to grow, and the "and also after that" meant it was still going on.....the flood pasages occur AFTER this verse once god decides to wipe out most of mankind....there is no mention of the neph after the flood.............oompa