Has the WTBS ever explained the trinity? (page 6)

james_woods

If I understand the early trinity debate (3rd century?), the primary purpose of this was to clarify that Jesus was not just a mere man who happened to get crucified and then was resurrected. The Athanasians wanted to in effect deify the Christ so that nobody could degrade him into just the latest prophet - sort of a succesion to John the Baptist.

This, I think, is why the witness theologians hated the Trinity so much. They do not want anything to stand in the way of their curious affection for the warlike and jealous Jehovah. While giving Jesus Christ lip service, they are probably the least respectful of the deified christ concept of any nominally christian church.

For crying out loud, they think that their 144,000 are practically on a par with the christ!

I think that the hunting down of various pagan references is just a support to prop up their rejection of the doctrine. That, of course, and their unique hatred of the Catholic Church.

leavingwt

I'm not sure if there is such a thing as 'orthodox' Trinitarianism, but I was asking what is generally understood by Trinitarians, whom I assumed (was I wrong?) would be the same group as those xJWs here who are now Christians.
I would also be interested in what Biblical support is available for the idea.

People who openly profess belief in the Trinity doctrine absolutely believe the God of the Old Testament is part of the Trinity. I have encountered a number of ex-JW Christians who do NOT believe in the Trinity. They subscribe to Arianism, like the JWs. (Monarchian modalism is a third, common, differing view.)

I must allow someone more familiar with the doctrine to take a stab at the Biblical support.

Randall Watters and David Reed are two published ex-JWs who believe in the Trinity. (See 'Refuting Jehovah's Witnesses' by Randall Waters, page 157, and see Jehovah's Witnesses, Answered Verse-by-Verse, by David Reed.)

sacolton

Well, sure. How else can you explain the "Jehovah" that appeared to Abraham in his tent and spoke to him face-to-face like one speaking with a friend?

In Genesis 18, Abraham hosts three visitors who are identified as two angels and the Lord ("Jehovah" in the NWT). Abraham spoke with Jehovah, ate with Him, and even bargained with Him. If the argument above is true, then Abraham should have been dead also – or Jehovah is not God. In Genesis 32, Jacob not only saw God's face, but he wrestled with Him. Jacob identifies it as such by naming the place Peniel which means "The Face of God" and he says "I have seen God face to face, and my life has been preserved."

IT Support

james_woods,

While giving Jesus Christ lip service, they are probably the least respectful of the deified christ concept of any nominally christian church.

I think I agree with you (from my limited knowledge of other Christian denominations).

they think that their 144,000 are practically on a par with the christ!

I suspect you'll find they only think the GB is equal with the Christ ... !

leavingwt,

People who openly profess belief in the Trinity doctrine absolutely believe the God of the Old Testament is part of the Trinity.

That's interesting.

Is there a reason you refer to "the God of the Old Testament" rather than "Yahweh" or "Jehovah"?

If "the God of the Old Testament" is part of the Trinity, which part is he? Is he the Father, Son or Holy Spirit?

Thank you.

sacolton,

If the argument above is true, then Abraham should have been dead also – or Jehovah is not God.

Which argument are you referring to ...?

Thanks.

tijkmo

To the disciples who were grieving, if the Spirit were an impersonal force it would no way comfort or replace a real person. Imagine saying don’t worry you’ll have electricity or a force! The Holy Spirit is a person ...

Trinitarians do not believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are the same person.

You're not listening. 3 persons, one god.

ok so we have established that they are seperate persons...but the one god.

so are they all equal..in power , in knowledge, in understanding, in ability, in existence.

To the disciples who were grieving, if the Spirit were an impersonal force it would no way comfort or replace a real person. Imagine saying don’t worry you’ll have electricity or a force!

hmmm and yet that is exactly what we promise to someone we are leaving ...don't worry i will always be with you..or my spirit will sustain you..you will always have the memory of me..close your eys and i will be there...none of which we actually mean literally..we say it to provide comfort.

reniaa

The trinity can be explained like the triple point of water where it can be liquid, solid and gas at the same time. One element = 3 forms.

lol this is typical of any descriptive trinitarian argument, take some random physical phenomenom that is 3 in number and apply it to God totally disregarding the fact that God is not part of the physical world and that item is not God. lol last trinity argument we had someone said god was a egg with a shell, yolk and eggwhite. I felt tempted to ask if God would become a chicken ^^ now maybe i should ask which bit of God will be water and can I make a cup of tea with it.

leavingwt

Is there a reason you refer to "the God of the Old Testament" rather than "Yahweh" or "Jehovah"?

I would like to be as accurate as possible. Both Yahweh and Jehovah are guesses at the Divine Name. (God of the Old Testament = YHWH)

If "the God of the Old Testament" is part of the Trinity, which part is he? Is he the Father, Son or Holy Spirit?

OK, this is where the words become confusing. To the JW mind, God=Jehovah=Father. From a Trinitarian point of view, "God" is three Persons. Moreover, there have always been the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Now, from this point, I would need someone with more knowledge of the doctrine to continue. Perhaps someone can help us out.

Specifically, would it be accurate to say that YHWH is all three Persons of the Trinity? Anyone?

myelaine

dear reniaa...

"trunity is a logical construct, there are no scriptures that directly relate to or even suggest it, "...

John 16:13-15...

love michelle

p.s. God is truth...only God leads one to truth...truth is found in God alone...

wobble

G.H.C Macgregor in The Moffatt N.T Commentary of the Gospel of John ,whilst commenting on John 16v13-16, states (page 299) "Like every N.T writer,John presents us not with any formulated doctrine of the Trinity,but only with those facts of Christian experience upon which such a doctrine must be based."

Note that "Like every N.T writer" so at least the WT seem to have got one thing right "the Trinity...NOT a Biblical teaching"

Love

Wobble

cameo-d

Well, sure. How else can you explain the "Jehovah" that appeared to Abraham in his tent and spoke to him face-to-face like one speaking with a friend?
In Genesis 18, Abraham hosts three visitors who are identified as two angels and the Lord ("Jehovah" in the NWT). Abraham spoke with Jehovah, ate with Him, and even bargained with Him. If the argument above is true, then Abraham should have been dead also – or Jehovah is not God. In Genesis 32, Jacob not only saw God's face, but he wrestled with Him. Jacob identifies it as such by naming the place Peniel which means "The Face of God" and he says "I have seen God face to face, and my life has been preserved."

Well now, this is interesting. I have always heard it said that "No one can look on the face of god and live" and now here "he" is chatting away and having lunch with Abraham???

Also have heard it said that the closest anyone has ever come to "seeing" god was Moses...and even at that Moses had to turn his back, (I think) ?

Now, in my bible it says Jacob wrestled with the angel. So could there be confusion here as to whether god looks like an angel...or do the angels look like god? And how could you really be sure who is who? And if Satan's purpose was to usurp God...could he be an impersonator?

Has the WTBS ever explained the trinity?

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