I Do Not Understand Why JWs Leave & Become Catholics!

by minimus 239 Replies latest jw friends

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    The cannot explain the "mystery of the Holy Trinity". it IS a mystery they accept blindly, as they cannot clearly understand it.

    Well, pretty much every Christian church believes that! The Orthodox, and all the mainline Protestant denominations. We can't fully grasp it, but we can't grasp eternity either.

    And the RCC believes it IS the "True Church".

    Sure, and as has already been stated on this thread, it does not mean that the RCC considers members of other denominations to not be Christian and to not have salvation.

    BTS

  • undercover
    undercover

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm

    The necessary means of salvation

    In the preceding examination of the Scripturaldoctrine regarding the Church, it has been seen how clearly it is laid down that only by entering the Church can we participate in the redemption wrought for us by Christ. Incorporation with the Church can alone unite us to the family of the second Adam, and alone can engraft us into the trueVine. Moreover, it is to the Church that Christ has committed those means of grace through which the gifts He earned for men are communicated to them. The Church alone dispenses the sacraments. It alone makes known the light of revealedtruth. Outside the Church these gifts cannot be obtained. From all this there is but one conclusion: Union with the Church is not merely one out of various means by which salvation may be obtained: it is the only means.

    This doctrine of the absolutenecessity of union with the Church was taught in explicit terms by Christ. Baptism, the act of incorporation among her members, He affirmed to be essential to salvation. "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: he that believeth not shall be condemned" (Mark 16:16). Any disciple who shall throw off obedience to the Church is to be reckoned as one of the heathen: he has no part in the Kingdom of God (Matthew 18:17). St. Paul is equally explicit. "A man that is a heretic", he writes to Titus, "after the first and second admonition avoid, knowing that he that is such a one is . . . condemned by his own judgment" (Tit., iii, 10 sq.). The doctrine is summed up in the phrase, Extra Ecclesiamnullasalus. This saying has been the occasion of so many objections that some consideration of its meaning seems desirable. It certainly does not mean that none can be saved except those who are in visible communion with the Church. The CatholicChurch has ever taught that nothing else is needed to obtain justification than an act of perfectcharity and of contrition. Whoever, under the impulse of actualgrace, elicits these acts receives immediately the gift of sanctifying grace, and is numbered among the children of God. Should he die in these dispositions, he will assuredly attain heaven. It is true such acts could not possibly be elicited by one who was aware that God has commanded all to join the Church, and who nevertheless should willfully remain outside her fold. For love of God carries with it the practical desire to fulfill His commandments. But of those who die without visible communion with the Church, not all are guilty of willful disobedience to God's commands. Many are kept from the Church by Ignorance. Such may be the case of numbers among those who have been brought up in heresy. To others the external means of grace may be unattainable. Thus an excommunicatedperson may have no opportunity of seeking reconciliation at the last, and yet may repair his faults by inward acts of contrition and charity.

    It should be observed that those who are thus saved are not entirely outside the pale of the Church. The will to fulfill all God's commandments is, and must be, present in all of them. Such a wish implicitly includes the desire for incorporation with the visible Church: for this, though they know it not, has been commanded by God. They thus belong to the Church by desire (voto). Moreover, there is a true sense in which they may be said to be saved through the Church. In the order of Divine Providence, salvation is given to man in the Church: membership in the Church Triumphant is given through membership in the Church Militant. Sanctifying grace, the title to salvation, is peculiarly the grace of those who are united to Christ in the Church: it is the birthright of the children of God. The primary purpose of those actualgraces which God bestows upon those outside the Church is to draw them within the fold. Thus, even in the case in which GodSavesmen apart from the Church, He does so through the Church's graces. They are joined to the Church in spiritualcommunion, though not in visible and external communion. In the expression of theologians, they belong to the soul of the Church, though not to its body. Yet the possibility of salvation apart from visible communion with the Church must not blind us to the loss suffered by those who are thus situated. They are cut off from the sacramentsGod has given as the support of the soul. In the ordinary channels of grace, which are ever open to the faithfulCatholic, they cannot participate. Countless means of sanctification which the Church offers are denied to them. It is often urged that this is a stern and narrow doctrine. The reply to this objection is that the doctrine is stern, but only in the sense in which sternness is inseparable from love. It is the same sternness which we find in Christ's words, when he said: "If you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sin" (John 8:24). The Church is animated with the spirit of Christ; she is filled with the same love for souls, the same desire for their salvation. Since, then, she knows that the way of salvation is through union with her, that in her and in her alone are stored the benefits of the Passion, she must needs be uncompromising and even stern in the assertion of her claims. To fail here would be to fail in the duty entrusted to her by her Lord. Even where the message is unwelcome, she must deliver it.

    It is instructive to observe that this doctrine has been proclaimed at every period of the Church's history. It is no accretion of a later age. The earliest successors of the Apostles speak as plainly as the medievaltheologians, and the medievaltheologians are not more emphatic than those of today. From the first century to the twentieth there is absoluteunanimity. St. Ignatius of Antioch writes: "Be not deceived, my brethren. If any man followeth one that maketh schism, he doth not inherit the kingdom of God. If any one walketh in strange doctrine, he hath no fellowship with the Passion" (ad Philad., n. 3). Origen says: "Let no mandeceive himself. Outside this house, i.e. outside the Church, none is saved" (Hom. in Jos., iii, n. 5 in P. G., XII, 841). St. Cyprian speaks to the same effect: "He cannot have God for his father, who has not the Church for his mother" (De Unit., c. vi). The words of the FourthEcumenicalCouncil of Lateran (1215) define the doctrine thus in its decree against the Albigenses: "Una estfideliumuniversalis Ecclesia, extraquamnullusomninosalvatur" (Denzinger, n. 357); and Pius IX employed almost identical language in his Encyclical to the bishops of Italy (10 August, 1863): "Notissimum est catholicum dogma neminem scilicet extra catholicam ecclesiam posse salvari" (Denzinger, n. 1529).

    Infallibility

    As the Divinely appointed teacher of revealedtruth, the Church is infallible. This gift of inerrancy is guaranteed to it by the words of Christ, in which He promised that His Spirit would abide with it forever to guide it unto all truth (John 14:16; 16:13). It is implied also in other passages of Scripture, and asserted by the unanimous testimony of the Fathers. The scope of this infallibility is to preserve the deposit of faithrevealed to man by Christ and His Apostles (see INFALLIBILITY.) The Church teaches expressly that it is the guardian only of the revelation, that it can teach nothing which it has not received. The Vatican Council declares: "The Holy Ghost was not promised to the successors of Peter, in order that through His revelation they might manifest new doctrine: but that through His assistance they might religiously guard, and faithfully expound the revelation handed down by the Apostles, or the deposit of the faith" (Conc. Vat., Sess. IV, cap. liv). The obligation of the naturalmorallaw constitutes part of this revelation. The authority of that law is again and again insisted on by Christ and His Apostles. The Church therefore is infallible in matters both of faith and morals. Moreover, theologians are agreed that the gift of infallibility in regard to the deposit must, by necessary consequence, carry with it infallibility as to certain matters intimately related to the Faith. There are questions bearing so nearly on the preservation of the Faith that, could the Church err in these, her infallibility would not suffice to guard the flock from false doctrine. Such, for instance, is the decision whether a given book does or does not contain teaching condemned as heretical. (See DOGMATIC FACTS.)

    It is needless to point out that if the Christian Faith is indeed a revealeddoctrine, which men must believe under pain of eternal loss, the gift of infallibility was necessary to the Church. Could she err at all, she might err in any point. The flock would have no guarantee of the truth of any doctrine. The condition of those bodies which at the time of the Reformation forsook the Church affords us an object-lesson in point. Divided into various sections and parties, they are the scene of never-ending disputes; and by the nature of the case they are cut off from all hope of attaining to certainty. In regard also to the morallaw, the need of an infallible guide is hardly less imperative. Though on a few broad principles there may be some consensus of opinion as to what is right and what is wrong, yet, in the application of these principles to concrete facts, it is impossible to obtain agreement. On matters of such practical moment as are, for instance, the questions of private property, marriage, and liberty, the most divergent views are defended by thinkers of great ability. Amid all this questioning the unerring voice of the Church gives confidence to her children that they are following the right course, and have not been led astray by some specious fallacy. The various modes in which the Church exercises this gift, and the prerogatives of the Holy See in regard to infallibility, will be found discussed in the article dealing with that subject.

  • minimus
    minimus

    I bet you're glad the Church no longer burns heretics at the stake. Their history shows that either you were for them or against them as The Church. Being against them meant certain death. But like the Witnesses, they recognized that it wasn't in their best interests to be soooooo harsh. So since 1963, they adopted a kinder, gentler approach, publicly. When a priest teaches that it's ok and natural to marry, they are eventually removed as priests. Yet for decades they paid hush money to keep their pedophile priests in their parishes! HYPOCRITES! And people make a huge deal about the other hypocrites---the Witnesses??

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    I bet you're glad the Church no longer burns heretics at the stake.

    How many people do you think actually got executed by the Inquisition?

    Take a stab at it.

    1 million? 3 million? 500,000?

    Over four centuries, only about 3000.

    Yeah, it's bad that anyone got executed.

    But it gets blown way out of proportion. It's partly known as the Black Legend.

    BTS

  • Finally-Free
    Finally-Free
    And people make a huge deal about the other hypocrites---the Witnesses??

    Does that mean we should stop picking on the poor little jws?

    You'll find hypocrites everywhere, not only among jws and Catholics.

    What's the big deal? If you don't like a religion, then don't go. Who cares?

    W

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    The cannot explain the "mystery of the Holy Trinity". it IS a mystery they accept blindly, as they cannot clearly understand it.

    And the RCC believes it IS the "True Church".

    Mini, not everyone believes in the trinity or in the same exact way. Father Mic, who was Roman Catholic but decided he wanted to marry and later became an Episcopal priest, he told me he believed that God spoke Jesus' name, whatever name it was and then Jesus came to be. And when they acknowedged each other the holy spirit or ghost came to be. So there you have three separate beings but they were united as one as this country of 50 states is one nation. Now that is his personal view. And he got that growing up in the Catholic Church. I don't believe Jesus is God and never have. Do the three operate together in unity? I believe that's a better way to explain it. Something to keep in mind is that governments often used the church to get what they wanted from people. People still use religion to exercise all kinds of control over each other. The Catholic Church is not perfect. I am not Roman Catholic. I do see much, much good done within the church and in outreach to non Catholics. They acknowledge that over the centuries the church has went through turmoil and storms and dark times. Most Catholics I know would never tell you that they are the only true religion or way to God. And only some of them believe the Pope is infallible.

  • minimus
    minimus

    Only 3000, huh? Well, that's not so bad, I guess. Just a measley 3000 killed horrifically.

    I think we should continue to expose any religion that claims to be the way of salvation and isn't.

    And when people believe whatever they want, that's ok, I guess. If they believe in the Pope or don't, they have that option.....which makes me wonder why anyone would want to be a Catholic. Is it great to be Catholic simply because you can now believe anything you want without being killed?

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    Only 3000, huh? Well, that's not so bad, I guess. Just a measley 3000 killed horrifically.

    You have to realize that essentially the Church was society in those days. The Inquisition basically functioned as the secret police of the Crown. You are looking at the whole thing through 21st century eyes.

    The modern day notion of a unified and horrible “Inquisition” is an assemblage of the “body of legends and myths which, between the sixteenth and the twentieth centuries, established the perceived character of inquisitorial tribunals and influenced all ensuing efforts to recover their historical reality” (Peters 1988: 122). It was the relatively limited persecution of Protestants, mostly by the inquisitions in Spain and Italy, that provoked the first image of “The Inquisition” as the most violent and suppressive vehicle of the Church against Protestantism. Later, philosophical critics of religious persecution and the Catholic Church only furthered this image during the Enlightenment

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revision_of_the_Inquisition#The_Creation_of_.22The_Inquisition.22

  • undercover
    undercover
    Does that mean we should stop picking on the poor little jws?

    I can't speak for minimus, but I'm surprised at how many people have jumped to the Catholic Church's defense. This site is all about JWism and the issues surrounding it. Minimus has led the charge on this site for some time in questioning the Watchtower and its policies. He has suffered personally for his willilng to leave the faith. But when he questions another faith, people have jumped to defend this bigger cult where on another thread they denounce the smaller one.

    More people have died at the hands of the Catholic Church, either directly or indirectly than has died because of WT policies. It's a fair bet that more Catholic children have been abused than JW children.

    Yes, the Catholic Church has a couple thousand year head start on the JWs (except to a JW) and there are millions more Catholics than JWs so the numbers can be decieving. But the fact that these atrocities happened under the roof of the "True Church" that is infallible speaks volumes as to it's not being infallible nor trustworthy as God's spokemen.

    On this site, people blast the Society for its handling of the child abuse case and many have left the religion because of it. Yet, the Catholic Church suffers similar issues and can still be defended by people who want to believe that it is special.

    Again, beating this dead horse...how people can wake up to one abusive cult but defend another is beyond any logic that I can comprehend.

  • minimus
    minimus

    Undercover, thank you. That was expressed perfectly!

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