Patriotism?

by HB 10 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  HB

  I added a couple of questions I would like to know the answers to in a topic that has now become buried on the back-list, so as they haven't been picked up I am trying again by starting a new topic.

  (If the forum administrator is reading this, would it not be better to use the common system that if new posts are added to old topics, they jump to the head of the list? Sorry if I am going over old ground but I am new here.)

  My questions were:

  1. I understand JWs are not prepared to fight for their country, work for the Government or local authorities, serve on a jury, vote, salute the flag or honour national traditions,etc. This is apparently an attempt to be 'in the world but not of it'.

  So do JWs accept state pensions and social security payments and benefits? I understand they pay taxes so I assume they do accept state benefits with a clear conscience, but it seems very selfish to just pick and choose the bits of the system they like and leave out the bits they don't. Taxes are required by law but accepting benefits is not obligatory. I do understand the rights of conscientious objectors, but JWs don't make an effort to positively contribute to society in any other way I can see.

  Also, there is a new issue in today's world, as in the West we are all part of the "War on terror". This involves helping to defend our respective countries in various ways such as watching out for suspious looking bags left on railway stations etc. Taking the JW anti-war stance to it's logical conclusion, if a JW saw a suspicious package and did his moral duty and reported it to the authorities, would he technically be participating in the "war on terror"?

  2. Although JWs do not vote, I assume many of them must have private political views. Are these ever expressed amongst the congregation in conversation, or do they carefully avoid all mention amongst themselves? (If so it must be very difficult to have an interesting genuine conversation!)

  And theoretically, if a political Party proposed in their election manifesto to ban belonging to the Watchtower Society, would the Governing Body then change its mind and order members to vote in the election to try to keep that Party out of power?

  I would be interested to hear from any ex JWs how these points are viewed.
• 

  DJK

  1. I understand JWs are not prepared to fight for their country, work for the Government or local authorities, serve on a jury, vote, salute the flag or honour national traditions,etc. This is apparently an attempt to be 'in the world but not of it'.

  So do JWs accept state pensions and social security payments and benefits? I understand they pay taxes so I assume they do accept state benefits with a clear conscience, but it seems very selfish to just pick and choose the bits of the system they like and leave out the bits they don't. Taxes are required by law but accepting benefits is not obligatory. I do understand the rights of conscientious objectors, but JWs don't make an effort to positively contribute to society in any other way I can see.

  Yes they do accept benefits when needed just like the rest of us would if we had to.

  Also, there is a new issue in today's world, as in the West we are all part of the "War on terror". This involves helping to defend our respective countries in various ways such as watching out for suspious looking bags left on railway stations etc. Taking the JW anti-war stance to it's logical conclusion, if a JW saw a suspicious package and did his moral duty and reported it to the authorities, would he technically be participating in the "war on terror"?

  Beyond moral duty is self protection, and that is not a participation in the war on terror. Unless your a suicide bomber, religion plays no part in deciding to report the package.

  2. Although JWs do not vote, I assume many of them must have private political views. Are these ever expressed amongst the congregation in conversation, or do they carefully avoid all mention amongst themselves? (If so it must be very difficult to have an interesting genuine conversation!)

  There may be many with political interests and concerns. They are for the most part private with little discussion if any with other members. I never heard political discussions among the witnesses unless it could quantify their belief that politicians are evil.

  And theoretically, if a political Party proposed in their election manifesto to ban belonging to the Watchtower Society, would the Governing Body then change its mind and order members to vote in the election to try to keep that Party out of power?

  My biased opinoin, No! If the society were banned, they would go into hiding, persevere and set an example to JWs around the world.

  These are the views I had of the witnesses when I left in 74. I may be wrong and some changes may have been made. Other forum members may be able to correct me or update you with new info

  BTW, welome to the forum.
• 

  AK - Jeff

  (If the forum administrator is reading this, would it not be better to use the common system that if new posts are added to old topics, they jump to the head of the list? Sorry if I am going over old ground but I am new here.)

  This system already does that. But it is very fast moving at times and it won't take long to bury again at times.

  Also, there is a new issue in today's world, as in the West we are all part of the "War on terror". This involves helping to defend our respective countries in various ways such as watching out for suspious looking bags left on railway stations etc. Taking the JW anti-war stance to it's logical conclusion, if a JW saw a suspicious package and did his moral duty and reported it to the authorities, would he technically be participating in the "war on terror"?

  Most Jw's I knew would report such to the authorities.

  2. Although JWs do not vote, I assume many of them must have private political views. Are these ever expressed amongst the congregation in conversation, or do they carefully avoid all mention amongst themselves? (If so it must be very difficult to have an interesting genuine conversation!)

  Actually, most of them have become so insular that they may not have private views. As for conversation, you are correct. Jw conversations are very dull in most respects - like robot-speak. Uproot any solid Jw from any place on earth and drop into a different congregation, and no one would notice. They are cookie-cut.

  And theoretically, if a political Party proposed in their election manifesto to ban belonging to the Watchtower Society, would the Governing Body then change its mind and order members to vote in the election to try to keep that Party out of power?

  I can not imagine anything that drastic. They did do some pretty sneaky things at times that violated their own rules and bylaws that involved political states [Hitler's Germany and the United Nations]. But they have never opened the doors to allowing such open thinking/political involvement on the part of the Rank and File.

  I was a Jw all my life till the age of 48 - credentially speaking. [Is that a word?] Out now for 4 years.

  Jeff
• 

  nomoreguilt

  As AK-Jeff responded, most jw's DO NOT have an opinion on anything. They have never been allowed to have one on the face of world events other than the wt banter on any issue of the times.

  Any question that you ask them will come back with an answer somewhere along the lines of...We are neutral, jehovah will handle it in his own due time, it's a sign of the end of this system of things. Trust in jehovah, blah blah blah.

  NMG
• 

  edmond dantes

  The crazy mixed up Witnesses do indeed work for the Government, in the civil service no less, and I know of one who is in good standing within the cong. who actually went to Buckingham Palace for his reward and received an OBE from her Majesty no less. I guess it was sanctioned from Brooklyn.The Order of The British Empire is no worse than have a UN library card it seems.

  But if we ever come under attack from a foriegn enemy you can be sure they wiil wave the neutrality card.
• 

  AK - Jeff

  Actually they might like to be attacked and banned - it superfires the persecution complex and tightens the belief that the end is near. There is some personal testimony [by William Schnell in '30 Years a Watchtower Slave' ] that Rutherford actually encouraged public resistance to the US government in the 40's to incite angry mobs to attack Jw's. This lead to landmark cases in the Supreme Court regarding freedom of speech and religion.

  They are a conniving sort in Brooklyn it seems.

  Jeff
• 

  edmond dantes

  AK-Jeff,

  William Schnell, I've a lot to thank him for, way back when.
• 

  WTWizard

  Officially, you are not supposed to have a political opinion. They tell us that we need to be careful about that. Look for that to be announced more come Election Day--that means the witlesses are not supposed to have opinions about which candidate is more likely to do a decent job (or be honest) than the others, or how they are to do their jobs (there is, in fact, a correct way--to strike all laws "for the common good" that inhibit people that want to change things).

  In practice, it is rarely enforced. However, people usually limit their topics for discussion to the Filthful and Disgraceful Slavebugger, the latest Puketower, the latest boasting sessions and a$$emblies, people in the cancer, the Watchtower interpretation of the Bible and picky things therein, the Middle East (and then the Old Testament version), and who they are studying with. To me, that makes for some real boring material--not to mention that they are misleading people into the cancer. Only rarely do I hear sports mentioned (and, from the platform, they caution against that, too).

  And, they mention how wretched the world has gotten. While that may be partially true (it was much worse during the Dark Ages), they are dead wrong on the solution. They are waiting on their God to do what is, in fact, man's responsibility to correct. Man has the ability to create a government that will perfectly do its job (which is to protect us from initiatory force), and this country almost did that. Now, all that's needed is a president that has the balls to strike the laws that work against that, derail congressional efforts to create new problems, and eliminate the regulators that are working against freedom. If that were implemented, things would for sure improve, and pretty damn fast.
• 

  10p

  Of course, you are right that Jehovah's Witnesses take what they like out of society and contribute little back. For instance, a JW can happily received aid from the Red Cross or another aid organisation ... but they are discouraged from contributing to these agencies and to rather contribute to the society. The society will of course use a small portion of contributions to aid JWs and maybe some of their neighbors in a high profile disaster. Also, JW's can make use of the blood donated by worldlies, through fractions only, of course - but do not donate blood to make up for their parasitism. They live in countries defended by worldy soldiers, but will not take up arms themselves. I don't agree with war either ... but until god's kindgom ACTUALLY comes, and ends all these seperate human governments, war is a reality, and the only reason the western world isn't speaking german, the only reason jews and JW's continue to EXIST (ie, the only reason Hitler was stopped) was because brave soldiers fought his armies . If everyone in America and England was a JW in 1930 ... well ... they would have all been gassed, and germans would have emigrated to these empty lands and repopulated them. JW's will make use of doctors, surgeons, lawyers, accountants and other university educated professionals, but will discourage (seriously discourage) their members from studying so as to have an equal contribution in these areas of life. Once again, the world would be a sick and sorry place if everyone was a JW - everyone's lawn would be mowed, carpets and windows cleaned, cars groomed and PC's reformatted yet again ... but no one would have a doctor to go to! (a world without lawyers might actually be a better place?) so in summary, yes, JWs are parasites. Why are my posts stripped of their formatting?
• 

  Gopher

  10p -- Try checking the Automatic CR/LF box above the "submit post" button. Or if you're trying to copy/paste to this forum from MS Word, that doesn't work. You have to then copy the formatted text to a Notepad or Wordpad, then over to here. Or just type your post directly into this forum.