by digderidoo 261 Replies latest jw friends
BurnTheShips:
Ok. Lets go with that. On what basis will you judge Yahweh
As I wrote, on his actions rather than his words.
and will your judgement be just?
Probably. If you think otherwise, I'm prepared to argue the point.
(Of course, this is largely an academic exercise. I can no more dole out justice to Yahweh than I could to Sauron or Darth Vader - but those particular fictional villains have a much smaller following.)
So my advise is this, if the OT is giving you trouble then read the NT!
But Jesus supported the old testament for the most part. How can you worship someone who goes along with that?
You're kidding, right? Have you not read the bible? What about the Midianites, the Moabites, the Amorites, the Amalekites etc.?
I most certainly have. These groups attacked Israel FIRST.
I don't recall such a prohibition. Can you provide a source please? 1 Samuel 21.
You disgust me. As if genocide or slavery were the only options available. They WERE the only options because God had decreed it so.
And yet you defend the actions of a people who killed or enslaved anybody who was different? It wasn't because they were different - they were destroyed because of their wicked ways. When the Israelites turned wicked, the same treatment was meted out to them.
Because the god you're talking about is the invention of a tribe of barbarians who used him to justify their atrocities. They were neither the first nor the last group of people to do so.
If He is only an invention, why are you so concerned about what He did?
I am glad not to live under such a primitive and barbaric regime. As if the modern-day nations are any better!
That someone living in the civilised world in the 21st century could do so sickens me. You should be ashamed of yourself. You sicken me with your smug prating about that which you know nothing. As I said, walk two moons ...
Sylvia
As I wrote, on his actions rather than his words.
OK, I will try to be more clear, on what basis will you judge Yahweh's actions. How will you make a value judgement regarding them. What makes them "good" or "bad".
(Of course, this is largely an academic exercise. I can no more dole out justice to Yahweh than I could to Sauron or Darth Vader - but those particular fictional villains have a much smaller following.)
I think you would be unable to dole out justice to Yahweh for entirely different reasons, but I see your point.
Snowbird and BurnTheShips are saying that the god described in the Bible has the right to do whatever he likes, and those actions are by definition righteous because they are the acts of a righteous god.
I would say that's a dangerous position to be in, since it makes the Bible's god's claim of righteousness entirely untestable. Just like the Watchtower's Faithful and Discreet Slave. They say they are Jehovah's representatives, and so Jehovah expects you to obey them. If they turn out to be wrong, and change course, you're expected to change, too. You can't test their claim.
The Bible says to 'keep testing whether you're in the faith', but that's not really possible, is it? Whatever faith you're in at the moment is the right one, and the only test is whether or not you're in it.
Dave
As AA says, it's an exercise in definition by premise, without the possibility of examination. If the Bible says it, ipso facto it is true. If God did it, ipso facto it is righteous.
Myself, I will take my Eve-given gift of knowing right from wrong and live a proper life without the need for a fanciful God.
To each his own.
Sylvia
Just like the Watchtower's Faithful and Discreet Slave. They say they are Jehovah's representatives, and so Jehovah expects you to obey them. If they turn out to be wrong, and change course, you're expected to change, too. You can't test their claim.
Ah. But aren't we talking about two different kinds of things? We are talking on the one hand about testable claims regarding a putative God who for the sake of argument is good by definition, and testable claims regarding humans who are not. Two very different species here.
Burn
I would say that's a dangerous position to be in, since it makes the Bible's god's claim of righteousness entirely untestable. Just like the Watchtower's Faithful and Discreet Slave. They say they are Jehovah's representatives, and so Jehovah expects you to obey them. If they turn out to be wrong, and change course, you're expected to change, too. You can't test their claim.
I tested the WTS' claims and found them to be entirely without merit. That's why I shook the dust off my feet against them.
I reiterate: I've found no unrighteousness in the God of the Bible.
Sylvia
>> We are talking on the one hand about testable claims regarding a putative God who for the sake of argument is good by definition, and testable claims regarding humans who are not. Two very different species here.
You referred to the Bible's god's claims as "testable". How would you test them?
The claims made by the humans are not actually from humans. They come from the Bible, remember? So they are god's claims. God claims that the faithful and discreet slave as represented by the governing body is placed over mankind and we are expected to obey them.
Ok, obviously God DOESN'T claim that. :-) But it's only obvious because you and I both agree that the interpretation the Watchtower puts forth is wrong.
Your views of the Bible's god are also an interpretation, one handed to you by other humans. Unless you have personal, individual proof that the Bible you use is the unaltered word of God. So from that perspective, I don't think the two species are all that different.
>>I've found no unrighteousness in the God of the Bible.
This is like saying "I've found no black in the white". White is white. If it had black in it, it would be gray. If you assume anything god does is righteous, then you can certainly find no unrighteousness in him. As you said, to each his own. It may comfort you, but can you see why it would not convince someone else?
Dave
