by Must obey! 29 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
GREAT POST....ABSOLUTELY GREAT...SUPERB...
I will use it very soon with a discussion I will have with the Elders, when they will ask me to see them in case I would like to reinstated to the WT.
So I will tell them yes I will, but before that can you answer me to this question?
'I can only think 'Must Obey' that you must have been talking with dubs who already have doubts. Any dub worth his salt will pick up the smallest mistake and use it against you. As an example I gave my 29 year old son all sorts of reasons to question the teachings and you no what he picked up on. I told him the wrong year the internet was available for general use. This is the way they think. If they know something you say is wrong they will simply dismiss all the accurate imfo. you have given them.
So if you were to talk with an elder or anyone else who is strong for there faith you would be shot down in flames. They would say that although much of what Russell taught was right Jehovah's spirit gradually revealled the whole truth over the next few decades. For the reason that it was too much too take in all at once.The food at the proper time will be quoted at you. If you don't accept everything the channel feeds you then you are going against the org. which means against God.
'Just human' has got it right. You plant seeds of doubt gradually just like the society do. That is what works. Your points are ok but hardly life changing
Sorry, but the Watchtower already has answers that put this type of reasoning out of comission.
The Watchtower stresses not just that the 'Bible Students' in general where selected by God in 1918/1919, but that the administration of J.F. Rutherford and those that followed where the ones that where chosen. Those who did not follow the directino of Rutherford and broke off into other BIble Student movements where the 'evil slave'. If a group of people left the Rutherford run Bible Students between 1918-1920's they would still be considered apostate and 'evil slave' because they did not stick faithfully to "Jehovah's Organization" and those in charge. The books and magazines have been very clear on this.
This reasoning is riding on a loophole that isn't there.
Won't work.
Counterargument (long version):
"Yes of course the understanding of the Bible Students is wrong, based on what we now know. But at the time, they were the group that was closest to teaching the truth. Jesus selected them, not so much because they were completely 100% right on every facet of doctrine, but because they had the right heart condition and wanted to know the truth. They were the group doing the best job at that time of upholding Jehovah's sovereignty.
In the years since 1919, the light has gotten brighter, and the organization has kept up with Jehovah's celestial chariot by refining it's doctrinal viewpoints. Those Russellite groups you refer to are still stuck in the past - why, they still study Russell's books, written over 100 years ago!"
Counterargument (short version):
"New light"
sir82:
Counterargument (long version):
"Yes of course the understanding of the Bible Students is wrong, based on what we now know. But at the time, they were the group that was closest to teaching the truth. Jesus selected them, not so much because they were completely 100% right on every facet of doctrine, but because they had the right heart condition and wanted to know the truth.
A counter-counterargument could be: If a JW of today wants to know the truth, does lots of research, comes to believe something that the WTS will teach only in 20 years, and tells other truth-seeking JWs about his/her findings, how will the organisation respond to this truth-seeking heart condition?
Answer: This JW should be humble and wait on Jehovah.
But wouldn't this simply mean, regarding 1919, that what matters is not to have the right knowledge but to have the right kind of ignorance at the right moment? Don't know too much too soon? Is that truth-seeking?
The JW could here respond that this isn't about amount of truth-seeking heart conditions afterall, it is about being obedient to Jehovah's organisation. OK, then, when there are so many organisations with obedient members (e.g. the Bible students of today, otherwise they wouldn't have made it to 2008): How do we know that THIS is Jehovah's organisation? Well, because in 1919...
Yes this does work best with those who already have some doubts, but it can cause doubts for those who aren't already doubting. And yes, its a matter of planting seeds. Its not a case of saying this reasoning "won't work" or it "definitely will". It can just be a powerful way of opening the door to their thinking, in my experience, and cause them to at least back off in being so smugly self-righteous about the org.
If the JW quibbles about 'new light' and the organisation of today having things more accurate than the bible students of 1919, then bring out how the Society has changed a lot since, say, the 1940's, for example, smoking was allowed back then and disfellowshipping was way more lenient and their was no blood policy and what were divorceable sex acts were different, etc. Then ask the JW "Was it Jehovah's organisation back in the 1940's"? Of course they will say yes. So all you have to do is ask them to apply the same perspective today and allow for the possibility that perhaps Jehovah is not very concerned about all these relatively minor errors so long as any group has got the main doctrines right? The JW may feel that only they have got the main doctrines right, but when they learn that there are still thousands of Bible Students who still believe JW's main doctrines, they often pause and think.....
If they want to hark on about Rutherford's reasons for branding the fallen away Bible Students as "evil slaves" then that leaves prime opportunity for you to analyse Rutherford's reasons and ask how could it be that tens of thousands of Bible Students, who the Society says were all anointed in 1919, suddenly turn from being the only approved Christians on planet earth into "evil slaves" in 15 short years or so. A reasonable minded JW (which most of my relatives and friends have been, thank goodness) can see this can seem rather unreasonable. Point out that if Russell had lived for a few more years and Rutherford had taken control, then Russell would undoubtedly have been one who would have left along with all the other tens of thousands of Bible Students? If the JW doesn't agree with this hypothetical proposition, then pull out some quotes of Russells was opposed to highly centralised control and the entire concept of "organisation", so he would have been opposed to Rutherford's new strict control and increasing ruthlessness. If you produce the exact quotes of Russell on this to make it clear that Russell would have been disturbed at the new direction Rutherford was taking.
If all else fails then pull out this trump card: If C T Russell was alive today he would be summarily disfellowshipped for apostasy! This point can really hit home with a JW who is already experiencing some doubts. At least in my experience.
Just a suggestion anyway. In my experience it is a waste of time trying to argue with JW's over their doctrines as a way of causing doubts...it is better to focus on the organisation and help them get a more balanced, objective perspective of it. This is one approach to do that.
If they want to hark on about Rutherford's reasons for branding the fallen away Bible Students as "evil slaves" then that leaves prime opportunity for you to analyse Rutherford's reasons and ask how could it be that tens of thousands of Bible Students, who the Society says were all anointed in 1919, suddenly turn from being the only approved Christians on planet earth into "evil slaves" in 15 short years or so. A reasonable minded JW (which most of my relatives and friends have been, thank goodness) can see this can seem rather unreasonable. Point out that if Russell had lived for a few more years and Rutherford had taken control, then Russell would undoubtedly have been one who would have left along with all the other tens of thousands of Bible Students? If the JW doesn't agree with this hypothetical proposition, then pull out some quotes of Russells was opposed to highly centralised control and the entire concept of "organisation", so he would have been opposed to Rutherford's new strict control and increasing ruthlessness. If you produce the exact quotes of Russell on this to make it clear that Russell would have been disturbed at the new direction Rutherford was taking.
The Watchtower teaches that the "evil slave" was allready at work before 1918, but that in that year they finally where designated as such. Anybody that would have left the Watchtower as left by Rutherford (and yes there where many) would still have been put in the catagory of evil slave.
In the context of Watchtower thinking the membership is never as important as the leadership. I think this is what you are forgetting. Just like Ray Franz points out in one of his books (can't remember which one) whenever the JW membership hears "Faithful and Discreet Slave" they do not think of all the anointed people on the earth (what's left of the 144,000). Instead they think of the magazines and books that come from the authority in Brooklyn. While thinking of it in terms of the remnant 144,000 is more accurate when it comes to their theolgoy, it is what it means in terms of authority that the adverage JW really understands.
They simply don't view all those people as being collectivly selected. The Watchtower has had it's cake and eaten it too with this concept for quite a while. I certainly don't think showing it to a JW is part of 5 easy steps that can "destroy their faith"
Boring.
I could imagine some dogma such as quoting the 10 virgin scripture where the virgins ran out of oil , I don't know that evil slave would fit in any sense because the only org. that seems to try and beat it's slaves is the WTBTS.Of course it's not a literal beating just a matter of semantics . They do appear to have a paradox going in regard to actually saying it's "the truth" and believing they are still refining scripture to attain accurate knowledge.
You're not grasping the logic. As I've said, it is quite easy to show that C T Russell must have been an "evil slave" then if those slaves were already in operation while he was still alive because there are many quotes where Russell was ideologically opposed to most things Rutherford changed in the organisation. To think that Russell could have been an evil slave is anathema to every JW, and the point can have a powerful effect on their thinking.
No it won't work with every JW Drewsagan but it will work with some because it certainly has worked on some JW's I've used it on. After reasoning with one of my friends on all this he went away and did some research on the internet about the history of the organisatioin and is now inactive.
I've said enough on the subject. Most posters seem to want to nitpick and resist it. Oh well, if you never try it on JW's then that is your opportunity lost.
