Catbert: The question of "guns" or "swords" is an important point. Revelation 13:7-10 speaks about the revived wild beast that controls the whole earth and persecutes the "holy ones". And then it says something about the two possible strategies available to people at that time: 9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity he goes away into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. Here is where it means the endurance and faith of the holy ones. The neutrality of JW's will keep them from lifting up a sword to defend some real estate. They would choose exile rather than compromise their stand for the Kingdom of the Heavens. Most likely, Mormons would die to hold onto Utah.
JW's Are The Key to Survival
by proplog2 34 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Gill
Proplog - Very interesting BUT for a start you have to hold an apocalyptic world view to even begin to go down the road that being a JW would save you from anything!
AS I said to you before, the world has survived swimmingly well without the benefit of everyone being a JW.
Just one example of something I was reading earlier is that the JWs have FOUR TIMES HIGHER INCIDENCE OF CHILD ABUSE than the Catholic Church which they despise! So, would JW children be 'safer' than Catholic Children in a world in which was decaying in order and apparantly only JWs were the goodies.
I agree that the whole world is and must add alway has been on the verge of total anarchy. It is a 'thin blue line' situation BUT it always has been!
Imagine the whole world to be as lawless as Africa! That's a world that I'd be shouting 'Get me Off!' But one thing I would not be shouting is 'Take me back to the Kingdom Hall!'
The Kingdom Hall is a place filled with injustices of its own. Women are second class! Elders and their children can get away with anything! Pedophilia is covered over to 'protect the mother ship'! People are bullied and their lives made miserable by people who know no better!
The bible is not a pretty book! Those who choose to follow it do not behave any better than others. However, you may find this bit of information interesting as I think you would have made more sense if you would have said 'Buddhism is the Key to Survival'! Look at these figures from this quote:
From the book 'The Case For Reincarnation' by Joe Fisher:
'The gentle effect of reincarnational belief appears to be registered in crime statistics for India logged during the British census of 1881. The collective record of convictions reads as follows:
Europeans: 1 conviction in 274 people
Eurasians: 1 in 509
Native Christians : 1 in 799
Mohommedans 1 in 856
Hindus: 1 in 1 361
Buddhists: 1 in 3 787
Not one religious war has been waged in 2500 years of Buddhism.'
So, Proplog - JWs, although not waging wars, I'll certainly grant you that, just from their record of child abuse and cover ups are not the best religion. I can think of multiple cases in the congregations we have been in where wives and children have been bullied and mistreated by arrogant husbands. Emotional and mental abuse is a crime in itself. The JWs are a depressed and unhappy group. They are NOT free from crime and certainly not free from mental turmoil. Also, they have only been around for over 120 years......so no comparison to Buddhism!
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proplog2
Tula:
You DO understand that I don't believe in God.
So, I don't believe that the collection of writings called
the Bible is "Truth" or even "truth". I am interested in
the Biblical emphasis on change that emerges from catastrophic turmoil.
I am interested in the big picture NOT the nit-picking doctrinal disputes.
So your references to God choosing, or God reading hearts are kind of
red-herrings. But since you didn't know my orientation I can understand
why you bring that up.
The big mistake is the all or none approach to the Bible. People think
you have to believe ALL of it or NONE of it. I DO believe there are
some amazing sequences of events in the world that match prophetic sequences
in the Bible. I don't believe in the JW interpretation but I believe that
their misunderstandings are necessary. They are wrong for the right reasons.
I can easily disprove their belief that Babylon the Great is some world
empire of false religion . But, I think it is essential that they DON'T learn
the true identity of Babylon the Great (USA) until it is necessary for them to
get out of the USA. If they knew that Babylon the Great is the USA
they would have been prepared to leave the country anytime a major war would break out.
I am not saying that the JW organization is good or bad. It is no different than
any other organization. People are people. (Notice I didn't say people are imperfect)
But it has a unique structure and stated purpose that make it significant.
You have to look beyond the behavior of individuals and look at its overall structure.
Don't forget to look at the paradoxes too.
Why would an organization that seems committed to growth put so
many obstacles in the way of growth? Why disfellowship so many of
their members for ordinary human weaknesses. Why would they come up
with a doctrine like "no blood transfusions" that gives them so much
horrible publicity? Why the emphasis on door-to-door preaching when
they produce so few new members with that method? They could easily
accomplish as much by launching a sattelite like Pat Robertson.
Why so many meetings? If they wanted money they could cut out the
week-day activities and field service so their members could work over time
and pay a tithe.
Everything points to a structure that fits their main message - "the end is coming soon".
That was their message in 1879. That has been their message for over 120 years.
And they have built the organization into a wide network of exceptionally devoted members.
There are studies by the defense department defining the requirements of a
robust organization that can survive and function under extreme duress.
These are some of the factors they feel make up a group that can survive:
Communications: members have to be able to communicate - even without
electronic convenience. This requires a network of people who all know
each other and are close enough to physically communicate if necessary.
Trust: members have to have full trust in each other. Trust can
only be built up over time through close association.
You have to know that the members of your group will be willing
to make sacrifices for the groups success even in the face of
immense personal inconvenience or harm. Firehouse mentality. There
are other advantages for having emergency workers live together
besides being able to respond quickly.
Authority: Democratic processes don't work well in emergency situations.
You need "deciders" who can expect to be obeyed.
Redundancy: You need people who are prepared to step up and fill
in immediately when they have to.
I don't know of another organization on Earth that can compare to
JW's on these matters. Metatron mentioned the Mormons. Yes the
Mormons plan ahead for disaster too. But there may be a tendency to
rely too much on physical supplies of food etc. Everyone knows that if
the stores run out of food it may be time to raid some Mormon households.
Also, the Mormons are too committed to a physical location.
They will fight to the death to make sure no one takes Utah from them.
All I am saying is that at the point where your survival depends on it -
don't be too proud to go back. -
Warlock
pro,
Interesting points.
How many of us joined the J.W.'s for our own survival in the first place?
I did.
Warlock
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nvrgnbk
When things get really bad, won't the guys with guns be the most successful at survival? Witnesses will be prey for the predators. Known to be pacifists. Easy pickings.
Not so fast.
That can be changed with just one article in a Watchtower.
New light shines as it damn well pleases!
Sad, but true.
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OUTLAW
Interesting thread.....When a JW is in need of financial assistance..He/She is instructed to seek help at a "government agency",by the local elders.......There is no advantage,to being in the WBT$ Religious Cult,the Jehovah`s Witness`s......"Especially" when shit hits the fan.......Unless it profits the WBT$ financially.Or.It improves the WBT$ public image..JW`s will always be Cannon Fodder in the WBT$`s "War against the World."...OUTLAW
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metatron
I think that Sri Lanka is Buddhists vs Hindus at war, isn't it?
metatron
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Hortensia
another reason governments don't like or trust JWs - they are so much NOT a part of the community. As for surviving, if they lose contact with the central org., they'll panic and run around in circles, or hang on to that stupid religion to the bitter end, thinking Jehovah is watching over them, or local elders will begin twisting doctrine to meet their own needs, schisms will develop. Anyway, since when did mindless obedience to an international corporation ensure survival? It's more likely to kill a bunch of people - corporations have no souls, and only have ethics if the law makes them do it.
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proplog2
Gill:
You can't prove your statistics on the comparison of molestation in the Catholic Church and JW's.
But, as I have stated earlier - I'm not into proving right and wrong. I am interested in the structure of things. The FAMILY is the most dangerous organization when it comes to child abuse. The reason? Proximity. Jehovah's Witnesses are a very close almost family or tribal- like organization. There is a tendency to trust others and the opportunity for individuals to abuse that trust.
Most churches don't have the same kind of close family atmosphere that JW's have. There are some churches that occupy the central social focus of its members. Those churches most probably have some child abuse going on.
Incest and other predatory behaviors are endemic to human society. I think it is unfair to use that as a club to beat up on Catholics or JW's.
When you talk about cataclysms in human history you seem to be saying that they have been commonplace. That's true. There have been war, famine and pestilence. But, human society was structured in such a way that stronger groups would survive. We have created a different world. We have homogenized everything to the point where a greater number of people are exposed to danger. We have modern agriculture that can feed billions but at the same time we could encounter situations that could starve billions. Since we have abandoned the agrarian life for modern city life everything is at the end of a long chain of manufacturing, and distribution. Modern man is extremely vulnerable.
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proplog2
Hortensia: You and others here are under the impression that JW's will be just like everyone else - runnning around completely disoriented when they lose contact with the HQ. Basically you are denying the whole premise that there are certain structures that, in a crisis, make some organizations more robust than others. I listed some of those factors that have been researched. They are basically common sense things. Clear order of command. Strong communication. Trust. Redundancy. Size is a multiplier of these factors. Next you make a bunch of assumptions that are commonly used on this hate forum. Mindless obedience? Some people in every organization are "mindless". There is also mindless disobedience. Just another corporation? Corporations are legal entities and are indeed "without souls". But the organizations that uses these legal "bodies" have an independent structure based on defined purposes, constitutions, or belief systems. Don't become a victim of your own propaganda.