Resurrection soon after armageddon or 1000 years after it?

by greendawn 45 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  JosephMalik

  Can anyone explain why the WTS claims that faithful dubs will be resurrected soon after Armageddon when to the contrary the book of Revelation plainly states that the resurrection of anyone other than the saints will occur after 1000 years?

  SarahSmiles,

  I cannot speak for the WT view but the Revelation is a series of Visions that are not necessarily in chronological order. Just like in Chapter 21 where we see the city coming down many times when we know there is only one city under discussion. It is not many cities crushing themselves when they come down but one city viewed over and over from different perspectives. This is also the way Chapter 20 was written.
  
  Sarah: I can not explain why the WTBTS make their claim to the first resurrection are the 144,000.

  The resurrection when it takes place will consist of both good and bad. As shown in Matt chapter 25:31 the sheep (taken from anyone that ever lived) are saved and this takes place at the beginning of the 1000 years when Christ descends not at the end as some teach. This sets the timing for the resurrection. We also learn this at: 2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Does this mean that there are sheep that are or have done bad and yet raised? Yes! Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, (bad) unto the resurrection of damnation. And Paul put it this way: Ac 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. So we are talking about one big event with mixed participants and it takes place at the beginning not at the end of Christ’s return as some teach. The damned, goats, those not found in the book of life do not get such an opportunity. They are rejected as goats right at the start as shown in Matt. Chapter 25. They would be treated as having sinned against the holy spirit and go into everlasting punishment. Also some sheep that are raised will fail the final test and be damned as well. So what is going on?

  The millennium will be a time of training and testing. Everyone so resurrected or changed will be an immortal human being physically. Only the holy ones, the 144000 are already Justified which is also the goal of everyone else in the millennium. They have life in themselves as our Lord taught and are considered as having been resurrected spiritually, first so resurrected in fact over which second death has no authority. But such holy ones and the Nations are shown as together in the same place and at the same time in Chapter 20. Living together good or bad they have a common Jewish Father and are the Israel of God. The final test will eliminate those Nations as individuals that fail this opportunity to gain eternal life. By being identified as Gog or Magog, some will be shown for one reason or another to be enemies of the Faith. That is the vision we see in the Revelation. When it is all over the earth will be filled with holy ones and survivors as originally planned in the beginning and God could now say: And the evening and the morning were the seventh day.

  Joseph
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  oompa

  If someone could please show me an original copy of REV. maybe hand written by the finger of god and a good unedited video of the event, I would be glad to CLEARLY explain this amazing time period.

  not worrying about it anymore......oompa
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  JosephMalik

  Oompa,

  I know what you mean. Perhaps that is why it was not given when our Lord trained His disciples and preached about this Kingdom to them. It was not needed and we should not be running to it for Doctrine. This was already well formed or established. Today many run to the Revelation and form all sorts of teachings that go contrary to what was already established as truth. This is where many of the errors come from. Like putting the cart before the horse.

  Joseph
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  Sarah Smiles

  JosephM

  So we are talking about one big event with mixed participants and it takes place at the beginning not at the end of Christ’s return as some teach.

  One big event or several events during the 1000 years, however one resurrection is after the thousand years; one during the end of the thousand years. One to rewards ( like me I will be at that one with Daniels and other faithfull rightoues like people because the second death will not before the first resurrections.) The other are all the rest who will be raised up under the oceans and under the earth, those are the ones who will be judge after the 1000 years for a final death were the false prophets will be WTBTS, Mormons, and SDA and anyone else who become a false prophets will be tormented!

  At least people have the right to look at Revelations and see which one they believe, because NO ONE REALLY KNOWS. You JosephMalik are arrogant and think that your way of thinking is the only way, very closed minded to see other viewpoints!

  It's All good just different veiwpoints! I do not embrace typical WTBTS or churches views! It does say at the end of the 1,000 years! and you can quote NT and try to apply it to Revelation all you want! but those verses do not give a time period of resurrections just explains how and what to expect, but not the when.

  Also, everyone knows that even Revelations if not in any order by chapters! but all of our minds want to fit it there nice and neat! Most churches and commentaries want to do that as well!
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  JosephMalik

  You JosephMalik are arrogant and think that your way of thinking is the only way, very closed minded to see other viewpoints!

  SarahSmiles,

  You would say that of Jesus as well I take it since He was critical of others that did not teach truth. If the challenge I have offered to others is not refuted then I have a perfect right to maintain the information offered to them. You think that is arrogant? This is not a problem for me as I know better. At least this is better then no recognition at all.

  Joseph
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  Narkissos

  It might help to state the obvious:

  Resurrection in the NT (or contemporary Jewish literature, for that matter) is either to reward or punish actions committed before death.

  Revelation 20 is no exception to that general pattern.

  The whole Russellite idea of resurrection as opportunity, attractive as it may be, is completely unscriptural.
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  Brother Apostate

  Joseph,

  You both take away from and add to the scroll.

  Lest others be mislead by you (and so that you yourself have been forewarned), I will focus only on those things you believe which are truth, that are in actuality, error on your part.

  Your statements regarding the first resurrection (before the 1000 years) are in direct conflict with Revelation 20:4-6:

  “ 4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.” (highlights mine).

  You are, therefore, also in error regarding where “the Nations” of the great battle at the end of the millennium derive from: These are the offspring of those who survive Armageddon, there is no other (Scripturally proven) way for them to be anything else. You are going beyond what is written when you change the timing of the resurrection of the remainder of humankind (non-martyrs) which is clearly after the great battle at the end of the millennium:

  7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

  These are the two points you have made that are extra-scriptural, that both take away from what is written and add to what is written.

  You are in error on these teachings.

  I suggest you humble yourself , pray for God’s Holy Spirit, and re-read this passages with humility.

  Perhaps then God will reveal your error to you.

  Remember:

  “… do not go beyond the things written…” 1 Cor 4:6
  “16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” - 2 Timothy 3:16-17

  I pray for you to get the correct understanding, and stop teaching as men do in their error, but as God reveals through His Holy Spirit.

  Sincerely,

  Brother Apostate

  P.S.- I haven't noticed anything else you've posted on this thread that is incorrect, but on the above two points you are dead wrong.
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  OnTheWayOut

  The REASONING BOOK invalidates what you read at Rev. 20:5

  (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

  In

  whatsensedotheynot"cometolife"untiltheendofthethousandyears? This does not mean their resurrection. This ‘coming to life’ involves much more than merely existing as humans. It means attaining to human perfection, free from all effects of Adamic sin. Notice that the reference to this in verse 5 occurs immediately after the preceding verse says that those who will be in heaven "came to life." In their case it means life free from all effects of sin; they are even specially favored with immortality. (1 Cor. 15:54) For "the rest of the dead," then, it must mean the fullness of life in human perfection.

  They explain that the resurrection must come during the "last day."

  ***

  w98 7/1 p. 21 par. 12 "Death Is to Be Brought to Nothing"***

  12

  When will the earthly resurrection take place? Martha said of her dead brother, Lazarus: "I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day." (John 11:24) How did she know that? The resurrection was a subject of controversy in her day, since the Pharisees believed in it but the Sadducees did not. (Acts 23:8) Still, Martha must have known of pre-Christian witnesses who hoped in the resurrection. (Hebrews 11:35) Too, she could have discerned from Daniel 12:13 that the resurrection will occur on the last day. She might even have learned this from Jesus himself. (John 6:39) That "last day" coincides with the Thousand Year Reign of Christ. (Revelation 20:6) Imagine the excitement during that "day" when this grand event begins!—Compare Luke 24:41.

  ***

  it-2 pp. 788-789 Resurrection***

  Time

  of the earthly resurrection. We note that this judgment is placed in the Bible in the account of events occurring during Christ’s Thousand Year Reign with his associate kings and priests. These, the apostle Paul said, "will judge the world." (1Co 6:2) "The great and the small," persons from all walks of life, will be there, to be judged impartially. They are "judged out of those things written in the scrolls" that will be opened then. This could not mean the record of their past lives nor a set of rules that judges them on the basis of their past lives. For since "the wages sin pays is death," these by their death have received the wages of their sin in the past. (Ro 6:7, 23) Now they are resurrected that they might demonstrate their attitude toward God and whether they wish to take hold of the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ that was given for all. (Mt 20:28; Joh 3:16) Though their past sins are not accounted to them, they need the ransom to lift them up to perfection. They must make their minds over from their former way of life and thought in harmony with God’s will and regulations for the earth and its population. Accordingly, "the scrolls" evidently set forth the will and law of God for them during that Judgment Day, their faith and their obedience to these things being the basis for judgment and for writing their names indelibly, at last, into "the scroll of life."

  Resurrection

  toLifeandtoJudgment. Jesus gave the comforting assurance to mankind: "The hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who have given heed will live. . . . Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment."—Joh 5:25-29.

  A

  judgmentofcondemnation. In Jesus’ words here, the word "judgment" translates the Greek word kri´sis. According to Parkhurst, the meanings of this word in the Christian Greek Scriptures are as follows: "I. Judgment. . . . II. Judgment,justice. Mat. xxiii. 23. Comp. xii. 20. . . . III. Judgmentofcondemnation,condemnation,damnation. Mark iii. 29. John v. 24, 29. . . . IV. Thecause or groundofcondemnation or punishment. John iii. 19. V. Aparticularcourtofjustice among the Jews, . . . Mat. v. 21, 22."—AGreekandEnglishLexicontotheNewTestament, London, 1845, p. 342.

  Okay, the explanation as to why they say this:
  The WT doesn't want everyone to think that people will be resurrected to perfection right away after the 1000 years.
  It fits their doctrine better to hear that those who die closest to the end are resurrected first to work toward making
  Paradise. This implies that everyone has to work for Jehovah.

  Also, if we were told that we had to work for 1000 years as survivors before we are reunited with loved ones,
  then more people would be depressed and decide it isn't worth it. All that work and having to wait 1000 years-
  no thanks.

  Plus, their doctrine is that everyone is brought to perfection before Satan is let loose to test them. It just sounds
  better that they "learn about Jehovah" during 1000 years before the test. That implies that you should start learning
  now so you have an edge 1000 years from now and will probably survive.
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  Brother Apostate

  OTWO,

  Yup, more F.U.D. from Satan's channel, the WTBTS, Inc!

  Cheers,

  BA- Let His Light Shine!
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  JosephMalik

  These are the two points you have made that are extra-scriptural, that both take away from what is written and add to what is written.

  BrotherApostate,

  This just shows that you did not understood what I said. I explained the difference between the resurrection of the holy ones and the rest of the world. The revelation does not change history already revealed. It is a vision after all using words that go beyond the norm. Look again at the second argument. Your punctuation did not make verse 11 a new paragraph. And you base your argument on such punctuation making verses consecutive. But I explained this as well. The NIV however does make it a new paragraph as does many others. It is another vision entirely and not necessarily in chronological order with the one before it. You did not identify it as such as it would refute your argument. That is the kind of theology that I am bringing to the readers attention so that they can make sound decisions for themselves by paying attention to such detail. A careful reader with a good background would have noticed it for themselves. The texts I explained prior to it made this point and I did not have to depend upon it such support. But it is there for those wondering where such thinking may have come from and I agree with it.

  Joseph

  PS. you said: These are the offspring of those who survive Armageddon, there is no other (Scripturally proven) way for them to be anything else.

  Sure their is. This is the kind of WT nonsense I refuted as well. The doctrine involved can also be stated like this: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; It is this seed of the woman that makes up the Nations not the few survivors (children) that are changed somehow at such a time.

  JM