by ninja 75 Replies latest jw friends
What about Atta's passport?
What about lots of things, who knows. We do know some basics though.
First, do any of your conspiracy friends deny that airplanes flew into the twin towers? Let's first establish some crucial points of interest first and foremost, before we get into questions about passports and such.
So, did commercial aircraft, flying at top speed, with full tanks of fuel, collide into the upper floors of the trade centers? (Yes or No will do).
Thanks,
Matt
I only post that one person will see behind the propaganda we are being fed......look at both sides folks........same as the JW stuff...we saw behind the witness lies.....
Now you're mixing apples and oranges. On one hand you are talking about a group of religious nuts, that want to get control of people and use them to front their magazines and book publishing corporations, for FREE. On the other, you are accusing our media in this country (multiple networks) of conspiring to give out disinformation regarding a tragedy. Need I remind you that the reason the media exists is because of a free and independant state that has a right to know the truth. The media is our friend, not our enemy. I like knowing if a hurricane is coming, or if it is too smoky outside to breathe, or if a fire is coming, or an amber alert to find a missing child, or an alert that there is an escaped convict, or that a certain bank I may deal with is being robbed, or whatever the occasion is. The media's point is there for the very irony you purport abou the witnesses. Exposing lies, and uncovering truth. Spreading the news about what's happening so people are warned. That's the point of the actual media. Also, the big difference. I can turn the TV off if I don't like it. I can just not answer the door if the JW's are bothering me. I have free choice. Free. Free
So WHY did they bring the buildings down?
It was done at the express permission of the leaseholder, Mr. Silverstein.
Flatly not true. When he said "Pull it" he meant get the fire fighters out. Firefighters agree on this terminology. Controlled demolition people have never heard it.
Matt...I confess being quite puzzled with your post...You say that "entire controlled demolition argument by the conspiracy nuts is ludicrous", but you also seem to have a controlled demolition theory of your own that is just as bad (or is it satire?)....
The WTC#7 was brought down with thermite charges. It was done after it had already sustained subsequent damage from the fall of the twin towers. It was done at the express permission of the leaseholder, Mr. Silverstein. These are facts that are plainly available at the NYC's county of Manhattan Recorder's office of records.
1) Thermite/thermate is not used in controlled demolition to precipitate collapse. It is an incendiary, not an explosive, and thus is a poor choice to reliably destroy vertical steel and an even worse choice to destroy concrete....the steel would have to first be exposed with the concrete and/or fireproofing manually removed. The notion of a CD use of "cutter thermite charges" appears to have originated with Steven Jones and has no basis in reality. Jones believes that thermite was present in the WTC towers because he found sulfer in a sample of debris although sulfer was a common component of drywall and other building materials, yet he found no evidence of barium nitrate which would be a key signature of thermate.
2) The meme that Silverstein had the building demolished is a misconstrual of his remarks on the the America Rebuilds program. The fire chief that he spoke to was Daniel Nigro and Nigro himself relates that the decision he gave was to pull everyone from the building and "stop all activity within that zone" (http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/Nigro_Daniel.txt, http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/hayden.html, http://911guide.googlepages.com/danielnigro). See the discussion here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT0WjGyZW1M. Mr. Silverstein through his spokesperson Mr. Dara McQuillan explained that "the Commander told Mr. Silverstein that there were several firefighters in the building working to contain the fires. Mr. Silverstein expressed his view that the most important thing was to protect the safety of those firefighters, including, if necessary, to have them withdraw from the building" (http://usinfo.state.gov/media/Archive/2005/Sep/16-241966.html). And Chief Nigro denies that there was any controlled demolition in his above statement.
3) It doesn't make any sense for firefighters to hastily prep a burning building for demolition. As both Nigro and Silverstein said, there was already such a terrible loss of life with an unprecedented number of firefighters killed in the collapses of WTC1 and 2. That was a huge tragedy they just experienced! If you are concerned about the safety of others, the smartest thing to do (to borrow Silverstein's language) is to get everyone out of the way and let a building that was clearly on the move to collapse on its own. An incredibly dumber thing to do is to put a bunch of firefighters with explosives or incindiaries inside a burning and damaged building to undertake a dangerous ad hoc demolition operation, especially since firefighters have no experience in blowing up buildings anyway.
4) "These are facts that are plainly available at the NYC's county of Manhattan Recorder's office of records". What?! You've got to be kidding. On what basis do you make this claim?
It was not a planned demolition, but one that had to be done as quickly as possible, with little or no blueprints to work from. It was done by all the resources available that afternoon. It took 4 1/2 hours to "pull" that building, for the safety of other buildings.
Then they failed miserably because the collapse of WTC7 seriously damaged 30 West Broadway, to the extent that the whole building has to be torn down.
There is nothing like your story in any of the witness accounts of those who were there, who mention no demolition operation undertaken by firefighters and who assert that all firefighters were pushed back from the building.
Please stand corrected on the WTC#7 issue. This building just like many other buildings in Manhattan have underground support beams. No drywall or other building materials in the way. They just tied a wrap on the central columns underneath (about three all together) and blew out the center base of the building.
1) If you are talking about the caissons underneath that supported the building, there was no way for anyone to access them underneath the grillages. If you are talking about the 8-30 ft. space in between the first floor and the grillages, most of the columns were embedded in the reinforced concrete walls (NIST0604_AppendixL.pdf). 2) Thermite is not an explosive, it does not "blow out" columns but would rather cut and slice into them AFAIK.
It pancaked on it's own weight, which was going to happen anyway, with time.
If it was going to happen anyway, why in the world have they taken the risk to rig the building?
leolaia why do you waste that magnificent brain of yours on conspiracy theory nonsenese?
While I don't beleive in conspiracy theories, I do think the attack on the WTC was much anticipated by the CIA, and this played into the imperialistic aims of the USA and was allowed to happen, with big hopes of many $$$$ and further enslavement of the poor. Without much thought to the body count, or without conscience.
Lloyd Braun
I happen to be doing a study right now which precludes that the USA is the "Israel of God" that the bible describes, and that we are being punished by God just like Israel was punished by Hitler in the 40's, because we keep abandoning the Torah and fornicating with the Harlot of Babylon.
The only people who think "the USA is the "Israel of God" that the bible describes", and that "we are being punished by God just like Israel was punished by Hitler in the 40's, because we keep abandoning the Torah and fornicating with the Harlot of Babylon" are one dribble away from idiocy.
Lots of people think that Hurricane Katrina was directed at New Orleans by God, because of the city's known iniquitous lifestyles.
And they are all idiots.
American developers who were Jewish were well aware of these things when they constructed Las Vegas. Why on earth do you think it's in the middle of the Desert? No floods, no landslides, no earthquakes, etc can really occur there...
There is no smiley for me staring at the screen with my mouth open. I thought I had heard all the credulous nonsense in the world but matt, you just hit a new seam...
Think about this though, for 200 years this country was blessed and has been a great place.
Oh, please, get a grip. Go talk to black people or Native Americans and find out how wrong you are.
The WTC#7 was brought down with thermite charges.
Utter rubbish.
These are facts that are plainly available at the NYC's county of Manhattan Recorder's office of records.
This is a lie and I'm asking you to prove your statement.
The entire controlled demolition argument by the conspiracy nuts is ludicrous.
Pot. Kettle. Black
da ninja
hey Abby...if you had said that the Bush administration was lying about reasons for invading Iraq before they went in....would that make you a conspiracy theorist?
I stated what I think, I don't care what labels people apply.
...remember we are talking about WTC7 being a steel framed building....show anyone here where a steel framed building has collapsed due to fire in over 100 years of construction...
Until you actually answer my challenge and prove your hypothesis is physically possible, I'll not waste my time responding to all the questions you ask to evade giving answers you cannot provide. I can answer the above question, and I know you could too. If you bothered.
why did Mohammed Atta's passport survive the crash of AA11 and the flight recorders did not?
Answer the questions I asked ninja. I know you can't. Do you really think people are so stupid they can't see you're being evasive?
You are doing exactly what Flood believers do; they insist the ark was used despite the fact the ark being used as they believe is physically impossible, and will avoid getting onto the topic of the ark being an impossible way to survive the flood as they insist - instead they use evasive tactics.
You insist demolition was used despite the fact demolition being used as you believe is physically impossible without the preparation for it being noticed beforehand, and you avoid getting onto the topic of demolition being an impossible way to destroy the buildings as you insist it was as you might be a little screwy but you're not stupid and want to avoid humiliating yourself. You probably have looked for someone trying to do what I've asked for and drawn a blank, but have invested something of yourself in this silly belief and are not prepared to let go of it.
....yep us conspiracy theorists are all deluded and btw Abby..
talking about the mormon professor who questioned the event....instead of attacking his character....confront his evidence....
I have in previous threads. Go look at them and find one fault in the refutation of his nonsense; hell, I've already posted one page on this thread which does pretty well and you're too lazy to even go through that and tell me what you disagree with.
Of course, you and Steve Jones have both failed to demonstrate that it would even be possible to prepare the towers for demolition without anyone noticing, which puts you BOTH in the same classification as Flood believers, which he is, LOL.
If you're not deluded you will answer this challenge honestly and without this bullshit and show me how wrong I am, but I know you can't. I bet you don't even know the amount of thermite required for one beam let alone the entire demolition. This is probably due to the fact people supporting demoltion claims (which seem to be your sole source of information) are very shy of doing the maths for the amount of explosive needed, the amount of wiring, the required placement, the amount of time to set everything up, etc., let alone how no one noticed it being done, as if they get into that they refute their own claims!
Come on, put your money where your mouth is and show me how what you claim could be done.
If what you claim is impossible, then just maybe it happend largely as the official story says it did.
that no steel framed building has collapsed due to fire before 9/11 ...^ FEMA. World Trade Center Building Performance Study, p. 4.
Marvin Bush (brother of george) was head of Securicom, the firm in charge of security of the WTC until 9/11. Coincidence?
Pre-9/11 World Trade Center Power-Down
Victor Thorn - World Independent News Group April 23, 2004
Did the World Trade Center towers undergo a deliberate “power-down” on the weekend prior to the 9-11 terrorist attacks? According to Scott Forbes, a senior database administrator for Fiduciary Trust, Inc. – a high-net investment bank which was later acquired by Franklin Templeton – this is precisely what took place. Forbes, who was hired by Fiduciary in 1999 and is now stationed at a U.K. branch office, was working on the weekend of September 8-9, 2001, and said that his company was given three weeks advance notice that New York’s Port Authority would take out power in the South Tower from the 48th floor up. The reason: the Port Authority was performing a cabling upgrade to increase the WTC’s computer bandwidth.
Forbes stated that Fiduciary Trust was one of the WTC’s first occupants after it was erected, and that a “power-down” had never been initiated prior to this occasion. He also stated that his company put forth a huge investment in time and resources to take down their computer systems due to the deliberate power outage. This process, Forbes recalled, began early Saturday morning (September 8th) and continued until mid-Sunday afternoon (September 9th) – approximately 30 hours. As a result of having its electricity cut, the WTC’s security cameras were rendered inoperative, as were its I.D. systems, and elevators to the upper floors.
Forbes did stress, though, that there was power to the WTC’s lower floors, and that there were plenty of engineers going in-and-out of the WTC who had free access throughout the building due to its security system being knocked out. In an e-mail to journalist John Kaminski, author of The Day America Died (Sisyphus Press) and America’s Autopsy Report (Dandelion Books), Forbes wrote: “Without power there were no security cameras, no security locks on doors, and many, many ‘engineers’ coming in and out of the tower.”
Forbes didn’t think much of these occurrences at the time, and said that he worked until Monday morning (September 10th) to get all the computer systems back online. Due to his IT-related duties on Saturday & Sunday, Forbes had Tuesday, September 11th off, and thus watched the World Trade Center towers collapse from his apartment. While doing so, he recalled, “I was convinced immediately that something was happening related to the weekend work.”
In addition, Forbes says there were other peculiarities revolving around this unreported event, including:
1) Fiduciary employees trapped between the 90-97th floors of the South Tower told family members (via cell-phone calls) that they were hearing “bomb-like explosions” throughout the towers.
2) Video cameras positioned atop the World Trade Center which were used to feed daily images to local television stations were inexplicably inoperative that morning.
3) A Fiduciary employee who was on one of the lower floors and escaped immediately after the first (North) tower was struck, reported that he was amazed by the large number of FBI agents that were already on the streets surrounding the WTC complex only minutes after the initial strike.
4) Last but not least, Ann Tatlock, CEO of Fiduciary Trust and now a board member of Franklin Templeton, had just arrived at a conference hosted by Warren Buffet at the Offutt Air Force Base (home of the U.S. Strategic Command Headquarters in Omaha, Nebraska) when the 9-11 attacks took place. Coincidentally, later that day President George W. Bush flew into this very same base on Air Force One for “security reasons.” Even more chilling are the Offutt AFB ties to the CIA’s MK ULTRA experiments, Project Monarch, the Franklin Cover-Up, and the diabolical practices of Michael Aquino. (Type any of these words into a search engine for more information.)
In the end, Forbes says that even though these disclosures could jeopardize his current employment, he has stepped forward because, “I have mailed this information to many people, including the 9/11 Commission, but no one seems to be registering these facts.”
http://69.28.73.17/thornarticles/powerdown.html
