Gumby:"Bible study requires us to study the Bible. So what book, chapter and verse are we starting with?"
Ummm.....I wasn't the one who said this. You need to look at that post a second time. Maybe even a third
Gumby
Does God REALLY exist? (An Attempt at an Online Bible Study)
by theMartian 121 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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gumby
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AlmostAtheist
>>Altho, why study the Bible, if there IS no God? Why do you even DISCUSS it, AA?
I don't think it's wise to claim I think something is bunk (e.g., the Bible) unless I have some idea what I'm talking about. I haven't studied it on its own merits since exiting the JW's, so it's possible I've simply changed who feeds me my biblical sound-bites. By listening to discussions on bible study, and on occasion participating, I buy some insurance that this isn't the case.
Dave
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Anti-Christ
He mad oups! I mean The Martian how about starting with the verses I posted.
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SnakesInTheTower
First of all, this is not a Online "Bible" study...its an online "discussion" because we cannot use the bible to prove or disprove the existence of God. The Bible was written by men not by God. How do you prove that it was "inspired of God" as it says in the Bible. Of course it says that in the bible...what, are the writers going to say anything different? If they want you to believe in a Bible God, you say that the Bible is from God....conflict of interest to me.
What happens when I die? No one has ever come back from heaven/hell/limbo/purgatory/grave/"other side" to tell me or anyone else. As far as I know, I die and become maggot fodder.
The Bible believers quote the scripture about faith..."you just need faith" . BS... The non-believers are not going to use the bible to try to prove/disprove a biblical god.
I am of the mindset that there must be some "entity" out there that caused us to be. Mathematically, we humans, and everything else on earth, are a bit complicated to have been evolved or just appeared..... but that is human math, not "higher entity" math. Maybe we are the equivalent of 2+2 and now they have moved on to Entity Calculus.
Leading to what frankiespeakin said:
if there is one I'm sure he's not as petty as the biblical one(he got tribal written all over him), that wants to be worshipped and praised or else you're toast
EXACTLY.
Does said "entity" expect us to worship it (in Borg style or any other religious method?) just because it some how caused our existence? I doubt it. For all we know, the earth and everything on it is nothing more than the equivalent of an entity school child's science project. Maybe we are like the ants in the ant farm, placed here for the amusement of some "higher intelligence" that right this moment are laughing their a**es off at what their "ants" are doing.
Or maybe we have been created and then just left behind, like some forgotten toy as the "entity"'s offspring have matured and moved on.
Maybe there are tens of thousands of Earths out there, but we have been blocked from seeing them so as not to bother or be bothered.
Am I greatful to said "entity" (aka Intelligent Designer) for being here.....I show my gratitude by trying not to screw this planet up anymore than necessary for my existance and respect my fellow humans and other critters (well, not spiders or roaches, no respect there)
What happens if we are all wrong and there really is "Jehovah"? Then do you really think he will kill us because we puny humans could not understand with our limited minds? Why would a "God of mercy" do that? I dont believe in the Jehovah that the Watchtower publishes. I believe in SOMETHING ...but what form that is -- if it is -- is anyone's guess....and guess and speculation is all any of this is. But its been fun mental gymnastics...thanks for that
Peace...
SnakesInTheTower (of the not believing so much Sheep Class)
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Brain Dead
History has shown us that the belief in gods or a god were mainly structured and developed on the basis of human ignorance or the lack of knowledge of the world we live in.
In a counter balance to that known ignorance, scientific discovery and established facts derived from those discoveries has swayed modern man to stop thinking that there are
invisible but powerful spirits swarming around causing climactic damage to humans and inciting fear to the detriment to the population. It does seem to me and probably many
others thats it's better for man to live in a world of continuing knowledge and to work with this knowledge with the intent to better the human experience. It also seems in an
unfortunate way that religious men like the JWS. have utilized and exploited that ancient ignorance and fear to cultivate their own source of power and control, negating the advancement
of man to better his existence along with it. So the question we have to ask are selfs would it be better to let the gods governed and control us or are we better to do it are selfs ?
My vote is on the humans.
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serotonin_wraith
timetochange:
I believe most people are at heart good and if given the chance would certainly live a life which brought themselves and others some joy, some good. Of course mankind has a higher purpose than just to reproduce that goes without saying. We have the capacity to do great and wonderful things beyond childbearing.
Evolution can explain this. Survival as a species is our primary concern. By treating others well, we ensure that we can all work together in ways that benefit us all. In order for you to sit down to your meal today, you will have needed the support of many other humans. The people who planted the seeds, the ones who helped them grow, the ones who picked the crop, the ones who made the packaging, the ones who designed the packaging, the ones who delivered the goods to the shop, the ones who built the vehicles used for transporting the goods, the ones who designed the vehicles, the ones who pumped the gasoline from under the ground to power the vehicles... I could carry on with more examples of how humans work together, for the simple yet overlooked ability to eat a meal. Even the cutlery you use, the plate it will be on, all of these things required the help of other humans. This is just one reason why we don't kill each other. It did not require a belief in a God or even a conscience from God.
We can find beauty in things. All this shows is that the human brain is capable of appreciating its surroundings. That's a good survival instinct to have if we want to keep this planet in good condition.And since I believe that in order to be able to give intelligence this missing element must himself possess intelligence he must then logically also have a purpose just as intelligent human inventors and artistic creators have purpose.
How can God have a purpose? If he has existed forever, is not bound by time and knows everything that ever has or will happen, then he can't want. He just knows, he just is, he just has. Wanting is when you look forward to something you don't yet have.
My point was that producing children is the bottom line of evolution but the reality is that people have the capacity to do so many beautiful and powerful things beyond simply having children in order to keep the species going. How does the theory of evolution explain that?
We all know that the world has plenty of people in it, there isn't a shortage of our species. There are many ways to ensure our survival, even by many of us choosing NOT to have children we could be making sure we don't overpopulate the earth, which by itself could damage our ability to survive.
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Gill
My View. Possibly but NOT as the dreadful creature embodied in the Bible.
God is too big and too powerful for that BS, if he exists.
He's a bit of a bad absent parent. He's chucked the kids out in the garden to play, gone on holiday and hopefully, the police will be waiting to arrest him for child neglect when he gets back from sunning himself!!! Not sure where they're going to lock him up but.....who knows....the universe is a big, big place.
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jgnat
Oh, what a useless, meandering discussion.
To put things in context, Martian, I believe in God. I'm also fairly logical, and appreciate a reasoned debate. Your premise is fundamentally flawed, so the very best you can expect is a flinging of words. Which is what we have. I'm also severely disappointed that the debate has descended to insults, from your very first post. Here's the flaws in your original premise.
1. Bible Study. Are you limiting the debate to bible believers? Obviously not, since you immediately address the "scoffers".
2. Again, Bible Study. Are you limiting the argument using the bible alone? Obviously not, since you immediately trot out observational examples.
3. Does God REALLY exist? As compared to what? Nominal existence?
4. Does God REALLY exist? As in really truly? As in we are going to definitively work this out on the internet? How? By divine intervention somehow? I'd think a great wind would be more effective. At least we know He's used that before. How could God speak directly from the computer to prove His existence? Sneeze through the computer screen?
5. You've assumed that athiests will mock you from the beginning. Starting with an insult is a very bad sign.
I don't see why God would even want to try and rescue you from this bad argument.
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Abaddon
Look, would people PLEASE realise that 'watchmaker' arguments (they come in various forms such as the hurricane+junkyard=747 and the one given above) only show one thing.
That the person giving them knows diddly squat about evolution, as the process of evolution is vastly different to to the random creation of a technological object.
It's like people describing the process of evolution change using the word 'random'; the preservation of data by natural selections is NOT random. It's another sign someone is talking about a subject they know little about.
I really do think it would be a nice idea if people arguing against evolution were a little less arrogant and actually learned what evolution was before deciding it doesn't exist.
Personally, I find the lack of faith shown by such people to be lamentable; they seem so convinced with what the have been taught they block their minds to a clear and obvious fact; it god was involved in the creation of this Universe, he used naturalistic processes like evolution.
Whilst I am unsure about the existence of god, I do firmly believe if anything like god exists he could create the Universe any way he liked, and probably much as science describes considering the amount of evidence there is.
It is sad so many people have such little faith in god's power they insist he could only create the Universe one way, a way there is no evidence for.
a religiously plausible answer.
Yes, well a religiously plausible answers make good toilet paper if you run out, They include Tiamat being split in two to form heavens and Earth, the Dreamtime legends of the Aborigines, the creation myths of the Norse mythos; they are all religiously plausible answers.
If someone thinks Genesis is backed by Science I would love to see them detail this in a proper lin by line analysis. As scientific ignorance has already been displayed on this thread someone claiming Genesis is backed by science could well be as wrong.
timetochnage
Which then adds another question to this discussion: How does evolution not only explain the origin of matter but also the origin of moral behavior. Or do only the strong get saved of man and beast?
When you have learnt enough about evolution not to make statements like 'How does evolution not only explain the origin of matter', (when anyone who studied evolution would tell you it doesn't nor is it meant to), I will gladly explain to you all about the evolution of morals.
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timetochange
Abaddon,
When you have learnt enough about evolution not to make statements like 'How does evolution not only explain the origin of matter', (when anyone who studied evolution would tell you it doesn't nor is it meant to), I will gladly explain to you all about the evolution of morals.
I asked the question not to learn, but rather to make a point. I know that evolution cannot provide the answer to the origins of matter- that's why I asked it! Evolution has many holes in it just as many as the fundy view of the Bible. Evolution starts out with a premise and proceeds to find evidence that appears to prove that premise while dismissing that which does not. That's fine, nothing wrong with that people do it all the time but to mock others for not believing in something that cannot be entirely proven is, well, fundy. ;)
