great reply tdogg, I just posted it on my "Secret WT Documents" site at:
http://thetruthhurts.freeservers.com/
Randy Watters
http://www.freeminds.org
Net Soup!
JW Response to NGO/UN info
by Andrew Farrell 67 Replies latest jw friends
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Dogpatch
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hawkaw
Randy,
Did you get the forms I Emailed to you? They are the same ones that are on Kent's site.
hawk
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ballistic
They clearly state time and time again in the Watchtower that only false religion relise on the UN:
<G<Þ>G>Jer 23 <G<Ü>G>Verse 32 tells us: "'Here I am against the prophets of false dreams,' is the utterance of Jehovah, 'who relate them and cause my people to wander about because of their falsehoods and because of their boasting. But I myself did not send them or command them. So they will by no means benefit this people,' is the utterance of Jehovah."
10 What false dreams, or hopes, have the clergy taught? Why, that man's only hope for peace and security today is the United Nations. In recent years they have called the UN "the last hope of concord and peace," "the supreme forum of peace and justice," "the chief temporal hope for world peace." What a delusion! The only hope for mankind is God's Kingdom. But the clergy do not preach and teach the truth about that heavenly government, which was the central theme of Jesus' preaching.watchtower1994 3/1
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MacHislopp
Hello Red Horsewoman,
thanks for your logical comment.
"The thing that is wrong is that the WTBTS is NOT dealing with a government. They are aligning themselves, however minutely, with the organization that THEY claim has set itself up in place of God's Kingdom. The organization THEY claim that is intimately connected with false worship. The organization THEY claim will soon turn on those riding "it" to destroy them.
The WTBTS CANNOT "ride the Beast" and then claim to be separate from it."
I think you've expressed so clearly that if one will not
understand the point/issue it is because he/she DOESN'T
WANT TO!
Greetings, J.C.MacHislopp
" One who has an accurate knowledge
of God's Word will have no problem
in refuting false religious ideas". -
openminded
This was my reply:
canou show me the verse where Paul signs an agreement to support the beast, and devote a portion of his letters to promote the beast's agenda?? It escapes me at the moment. I think it must be in one of the epistles. Your comparison to what Paul was doing is an insult to his work. I will actually concede the argument that the society is registered with the U.N. to protect the interests of it's preaching activity. But that does not negate the fact that the society is proactively seeking out the protection of the U.N., the very organization they condemn. The very organization that has been identified as being in direct opposition to God's kingdom. It seems to me that God is not able to, or willing to provide such protection for the WTS. Just as he does not provide it for the rest of "harlot"(who you saw on the list) that is riding on the back of the disgusting thing.
"Religion is a snare and a racket"
The WTS is lying to the U.N. or to its own members; which is it? -
openminded
This is his response -is my word *is his response
-can you show me the verse where Paul signs an agreement to support the beast, and devote a portion of his letters to promote the beast's agenda?? It escapes me at the moment. I think it must be in one of the epistles.
*Sarcasm as a ploy. Just how stupid do you want our discussions to become? The point I was trying to make is that Paul had to interface with political organizations to further the spread of the good news. The purpose? 2 Tim 2:1-3 helps us see the motive of the WTS in interfacing with the UN or any other national government:
2 Tim 2:1-3 I therefore exhort, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, offerings of thanks, be made concerning all sorts of men, 2 concerning kings and all those who are in high station; in order that we may go on leading a calm and quiet life with full godly devotion and seriousness. 3 This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God,
Paul's interfacing with political leaders was for this specific purpose. It was not to control or guide the political entity or to support their efforts in any manner. Ditto with the WTS. We do not go to war or get involved in political agendas or take over governments or picket or attack or terrorize. Get a grip and look at what is truly going on, if you can. I now doubt that you can be objective.
-Your comparison to what Paul was doing is an insult to his work.
*Hardly for all that Paul did, even interfacing with political leaders, was to further the good news. Has the WTS not done the same? You seem to agree in the following statement.
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-I will actually
concede the argument that the society is registered with the U.N. to protect the interests of it's preaching activity.*Well, if you concede this then why bring the topic up in the first place and why do you try to paint a distorted picture of the WTS' activity related to the UN? Do you really have information to show their conduct is improper or is this just another method used to discredit them in your own mind?
-But that does not negate the fact that the society is proactively seeking out the
-protection of the U.N., the very organization they condemn. The very organization that has been identified as being in direct opposition to God's kingdom. It seems to me that God is not able to, or willing to provide such protection for the WTS. Just as he does not provide it for the rest of "harlot"(who you saw on the list) that is riding on the back of the disgusting thing.
*Paul appealed to Caesar didn't he? It wasn't proactive in that he did not register with Caesar in advance. But did the WTS do so in advance or only when they needed to act? Caesar was the ruler of the world power of the time, wasn't he? Does the fact that Paul appealed to that world power negate his purpose or respectability? Hardly.
Did you glean that they are registered with the US as a nonpolitical organization? What does that tell you? Does the fact they are interested in human rights give you a clue? Did it ever occur to you that the WTS may have to be registered with the UN to appeal to the International Court of Justice? They plead cases on behalf of the brothers at that court. One instance was on the behalf of the brothers in Greece. Did you glean from your review of Paul's case that he appealed to the authority over matters of law? Appealing to laws of a land facilitate our peaceful worship and preaching.
So is there really a problem, except the one in your mind? Isn't it a fact that you do not know what the activities of the WTS have been in relation to the UN? Are you positive their motives are impure and that they are acting in an unscriptural manner or are you simply assuming or more accurately presuming their motives are not pure. Did you bother to collect the facts before spewing accusations?
Your close association with the WTS has not proven anything to you about their conduct or motives has it? You had rather subscribe to the distorted views of apostates. Where is the sensibility of your heart? If you would analyze the conduct of the WTS in context and objectively, something you seem incapable of doing at this time, you would get a much better picture of them and their activities. They have a worldwide reputation you simply deny. To what ends? Are your motives truly pure or do you have some hidden agenda?
-Religion is a snare and a racket"
The WTS is lying to the U.N. or to its own members; which is it?*Provide written proof of this or be quiet. You asked why it was unwise to listen to apostates. You just provided the reasons for me. Did you catch it? Distortions, fabrications and lies are what they foment. You are following blindly in their path. Where is objectivity? Where is truth? Where is the love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, mildness, long suffering, faith and self control? Are they present in you or lacking? I know which, but do you? Review the works of the flesh at Gal 5:20.
You ramble on making a case against the WTS without evidence and for what purpose? Are they really wrong or do you just want them to be? Are they following what the Bible says? Yes, I know they do, but the question is why can't you see it? There is a very good reason why you cannot see the truth. Do you know what it is? 2 Cor 4:3-4 will give you a hint.
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siegswife
openminded, In every AWAKE magazine that I have, a UN agency is mentioned somewhere in a somewhat positive light. While this in itself is not a bad thing, knowing what I now know about the relationship between the UN and WTS, this fact is very telling. The WTS is allowing the UN to influence the content of their publications! They have AGREED to PROMOTE the UN in their publications and they are now BOUND to do just that. They HAVE TO mention and PROMOTE the UN in some way in their literature. Don't you see what that means? It means that the WTS is not being led by GOD, they are being led by the UN. They HAVE TO use their publications to promote the COUNTERFEIT KINGDOM set up by SATAN, according to their own definition of the UN.
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Trevor Scott
Your friend said:
Paul's interfacing with political leaders was for this specific purpose. It was not to control or guide the political entity or to support their efforts in any manner. Ditto with the WTS.
Wrong. Absolutely false. The role of these non-governmental organizations that are associated with the United Nations is defined in UN resolution 1296 (XLIV) of May 23, 1968, which states that an NGO "...shall undertake to support the work of the United Nations and to promote knowledge of its principles and activities."
Note also, from the UN-DPI document:
...disseminating information and mobilizing public opinion in support of the UN and its Specialized Agencies. Association with DPI constitutes a commitment to that effect.
In registering with the UN as an ngo, the The Watchtower Society has committed to support the work of the United Nations. Period. Now they either lied to the UN (in which case they are proved liars), or they are supporting the UN (aka, scarlet beast).
Provide written proof of this or be quiet.
You ramble on making a case against the WTS without evidence
Have you directed this person to the UN-DPI website? He'll love this:
( http://www.un.org/MoreInfo/ngolink/brochure.htm
( http://www.un.org/MoreInfo/ngolink/ngodir/NGODirAlph/alphabet.htmKeep the posts coming.
TS,
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tdogg
Wow, openminded I guess that line of reasoning didnt work after all. The person you correspond with is ready to defend the WTS no matter what you may say.
The tone of the person's words is quite interesting. Hostillity is oozing from the response. You have really struck a nerve there.
This part is good: "following blindly in their path. Where is objectivity? Where is truth? Where is the love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, mildness, long suffering, faith and self control?" The tables are being turned on you. Farkel would probably know the name for this ploy.
The reference to Paul to is irrelevent and helps to evade the conclusion that you suggested in your reasoning. And I really like the cop=out word :"interfacing". Very nice.
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hawkaw
Openminded,
You have hit the "wall".
My first point is I would go to a questioning format and make the next Email your last Email.
My second first point is - avoid the bible - don't even go there. Instead use the Watchtower's own words against them. Use their own words to convict them!!!!
Finally you need a human touch to make it sink it - remember you are attacking a belief so you need to show why your "data" or "fact" is important in a non-confrontatial manner.
Ask what would happen if a Witness like himself stood up in the hall and stated that he voluntarily supports a country's charter such as the USA consititution? - disassociation?
Then remind him of the Oct 1/1995 WT which required the Watchtower and Witnesses to treat the UN exactly the same as any government. Therefore we as witnesses must not show "support" to the Untied Nation's charter just like any country's.
Then ask why is it okay for the FDS to "support" and "respect" a UN charter but not a Witness. And why did no one tell the Witnesses this?
I am doing this fast so you should take my questions and improve on them.
Final point - thank him for his interesting comments.
Again, after this Email leave it be - don't respond.
hawk