Debaters: Let's have It Out !

by Amazing 124 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  lovelylil

  Q,

  I don't see where anyone claimed that the RC Church or its members does not have ANY authority to teach the word of God to others. Can you point that out to me?

  What I am seeing is that most here, including myself, would say that the RC Church (as an institution) does not have the SOLE authority over all of those in Christ's chuch, again church means the body of believers. (nor does any other ONE church system have sole authority over the church) True Christians are within ALL of the church denominations and institutions. While Christians can learn things from those reading the word at "church" or from those leaders in the "church", the main way they learn is through the Holy Spirit which lives in them.

  When I was a member of the RC or the JW's and I knew that what was being taught WAS indeed based on God's word, the teachings of Christ or that of the Apostles, then I DID follow it. But IF they taught things that I believed were not based on God's word, the teachings of Christ or the foundation laid by the Apostles, then I DID NOT follow it. Of course we need some type of arrangment within the body, but it is up to individual Christians to check what they are taught to the Word of God to make sure it is indeed "God inspired". (1Timothy 4:1). I am not against Christians being organized at all. They are able to accomplish a lot of good by being joined together and we are told not to "forsake the gathering of ourselves". So this would show some type of organization. Again I am only saying that a huge church does not neccesarily mean that it is the only TRUE church on earth. I've know house churches that had God's blessings on them.

  As far as being prophets, teachers, etc. in all the denominations where the living temple of God is; the believers who are "in Christ", the Spirit itself will appoint them as Apostles, prophets, teachers, evangelizers, etc. - according to the gift the Spirit gives them. For not everyone in Christ's body is a teacher or a leader, or an evangelizer, etc. But the Spirit within the true believer will teach them what gift they have and if they work with the Spirit, it will be obvious to them and others what gift they possess. Are you saying that these men/or women who possess these gifts must be in only ONE church system?

  Not really sure if I answered your questions, they were not that clear to me, but I tried. Lilly

  LT - way to go. Love the way you express things.
• 

  Qcmbr

  LL The point is that authority is exclusive by its definition. The RC either has authority or it does not. If the RC church has authority then the whole protestant movement have denied the giver of that authority by denying the RC church. If one then begins another movement or teaches another interpretation at odds with the authorised one then you can only be acting as the anti-christ and are the equivelant of standing 500 yards from the sermon on the mount and preaching a different version.
  
  This all hangs on whether there is such a thing as authority. If there is not then the RC church is as insignificant in its actions and interpretations as you or I.
• 

  bernadette

  When I was a member of the RC or the JW's and I knew that what was being taught WAS indeed based on God's word, the teachings of Christ or that of the Apostles, then I DID follow it. But IF they taught things that I believed were not based on God's word, the teachings of Christ or the foundation laid by the Apostles, then I DID NOT follow it. Of course we need some type of arrangment within the body, but it is up to individual Christians to check what they are taught to the Word of God to make sure it is indeed "God inspired". (1Timothy 4:1).

  I like that point lovlylil
• 

  Golf

  Right on St. Elsewhere, right on! Yeah, we're still retarded even though we win.
  
  
  Golf
• 

  LittleToe

  Q:
  You appear to be mistakenly attempting to assign authority to a single organisation (I'm guessing its because you think yours has it). The Holy Spirit appears to apportion gifts in men as it sees fit, including Apostles, Teachers, Pastors, etc., etc., regardless of the human boundaries of nationality, language or denomination.

  Every land has its ruler, and apparently even these are set in place by God. Why not the same for each denomination that attempts to exalt His name? That having been said, I'm not so sure either Ratzinger or Hinkley can lay claim to such authority, but that's just my personal belief. Millions would disagree with me (though I'm still with the majority).
• 

  Qcmbr

  I know you keep poking me to start making LDS claims for authority but this isn't part of my questions or point - you just keep raising it!
  
  My point is does such an authority exist? Do we have a Moses scenario or did Jesus leave things undefined. From the OT we find a God who does 'sweat the small stuff' but then that begs another question - was that God therefore also the God of the NT - did He just change tack and get unconcerned about the ritual and priesthood. Did Jesus basically say - believe what you will just accept me? Is that the sum of the authority? Why did Simon try and buy the apostles power - did he recognise some level of divine anointing? We quote Paul a lot but how did he feel about those who rejected what he taught? What is this priesthood that the scriptures talk about? Are the sacraments even required and if they are who administers them or is the act and good intentions itself good enough?
• 

  lovelylil

  Q,

  There is no institution or denomination today that can claim exclusive or Sole authority over ALL of the body of Christ. Each church should be automonous ( I think this is the correct term) and will be built upon the foundation already laid by Christ and the Apostles. They will use God's word to base their teachings and structure on. You are comparing apples and oranges here. The church, believers themselves, are the ones who have been given authority to preach, teach, instruct, upbuild the body, etc. and be ambassadors for Jesus. Not any particular institution or ONE particular denomination.

  To impress on this point, the Apostle Paul was chosen by the Holy Spirit and did not associate with any other beleivers in Christ for 14 years. You may wonder who taught him or sent him forth to preach then? Christ did and imparted the Spirit to Paul. He did not need to belong to a group, he did not even have to "check in" with the other Christians in Jerusalem for instance. (where most believers where at the time).

  I became a Christian when the Holy Spirit came into my heart about 6 years ago. And after leaving the WT, I spent almost 3 years alone, with no Christian association but I did learn about Christ using the NT alone, and the Spirit taught me what I needed to learn. Then I began to teach others about Christ, that is the truth about him and not what I learned in the WT. The Spirit in me, helped to break down all the false beliefs I had been taught by Church Institutions all my life. I did not need a particular denomination to send me out to be an ambassador for Christ. Christ himself made ME an ambassador for him when HE anointed me with Holy Spirit.

  If you are looking for one church SYSTEM that contains ALL the truth and ALL the true Christians, you will not find it. People are true Christians because of the Spirit inside them and obeying Christ not because they are in a certain denomination. You are a Mormon correct? They basically make the same claims to being the only true Church like the Witnesses and the RC Church.

  Unless someone has experienced the "anointing" of the Holy Spirit - they cannot understand it. And they will always rely on the church systems to instruct them. They will not be able to advance into a mature Christian "in Christ" unless they have been "anointed" or "born again" by the Spirit. Once they become "born again" they can gather in any church they want to or, not gather there and they will still be a member of Christ's body or the true Church. The scriptures do tell us though to gather together with other Christians. I am just doing that now, only in a house church.

  Again, I am not necessarily against organizing into a denomination or organization. Many Christians want a place to go to be with like minded beleivers and organizations do a lot of good. But, just because you belong to a Christian denomination or organization, it does not automatically make you a Christian. You are a Christian because Christ is "in you". Peace, Lilly

  btw: I need to take a break from typing today. My eyes are getting weary and my hands. Maybe some others can join in this debate.
• 

  LittleToe

  Q:I keep mentioning the LDS because you're tackling what you see as RC issues using tenets that your own faith holds. If it's any consolation I'd be doing the same to anyone else, it's not personal.

  Why were there twelve Apostles? Where were they all when Paul visited Jerusalem (given that he only saw Peter and James)? Tradition has it that they dispersed to places like India and Africa. Authority wasn't singularly vested in Peter, else by what authority could Paul rebuke him? Or are we extending the bounds of his authority to include that which it does not?

  Likewise, on what basis did Joseph Smith claim renewed authority, superior to all other groups? How is it greater than that claimed by Charles Taze Russell, Sun Myung Moon or Arthur of Camelot?
• 

  *jeremiah*

  LT,

  As far as the articles concerned I agree with the authors viewpoint. He put it in a way more eloquent and more intelligent than I ever could. If you haven't read it,...you should.

  I also agree with much of what lovelylil, Drew, and Sad Emo have said regarding what the church is.

  My girlfriend of going on 8 yrs is very Catholic. Through our discussions I have learned and researched much about the RCC.

  In short,...after all that I've researched and found I have many problems with the RCC. It would take pages to go into,...so I'll leave it that.
• 

  NanaR

  I have a question for all of you who contend that it is absolutely necessary for every believer to verify every teaching of the church with which they associate in their own personal copy of the Bible:

  Are there true Christians now or have there been true Christians (meaning individuals who have been annointed by God's Holy Spirit to serve him) who either cannot read or have no access to the Holy Scriptures in written form?

  And if there are such (and I believe there are -- both now and in the past), then how were they taught and by whom? And how would they carry on without an organized Body of Christ to worship with?

  NanaR