They Came back

by Theophilus 23 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Theophilus
    Theophilus

    Howdy. After an unfortunate absence I have returned.
    Ina previous thread, I shared that I had initially begun my research into JW doctrine and such after being approached (some would say accosted) by a pair of well meaning JW's one Saturday morning. I also shared that, up to that time, they had not contacted me. Well... They came back. As I was leaving for church, no less. I told them I was on my way out and asked for their e-mail addresses so that I could arrange a time to meet.
    I have not yet contacted them and I have returned to this forum to request your help. I would like to know (1)what you discovered that showed you that the WT was not right? and (2)what your advice would be for a guy who wants to help other JW's to know the truth about the Organization?
    I've done enough research to know how wrong it is, but how do I help the one who believes it to be true?
    I would really appreciate any help you can provide.
    PS - anybody got a Kingdom Interlinear laying around that they might want to sell?

    Thanks all!

  • Pathofthorns
    Pathofthorns

    First of all, the kingdom interlinear could be ordered through your JW friends for a donation. I'd suggest giving them the donation at the time you request it, as you'd be more likely to actually recieve it

    As for being able to help them, much depends on the particular individual. What it basically comes down to is how honest that person is, how much he values actual truth and whether he has an open mind.

    The obvious mistake is to think you can somehow prove it wrong and the JW will just leave the religion. Leaving is as much of a process as joining. Plus you will have to get past the JW mentality that will just shut themselves down and avoid you, because "obviously you are not a reasonable person, you are only seeking to "tear down" and its clear you have been given "apostate propaganda""

    One thing to remember is that whatever points you can get out, will not likely be forgotten by someone who is sincere. Your words might have results five years from now, as something calls them back to mind.

    You need to keep in mind Witnesses know little about their history, and present controversial policies like blood fractions. All possess a book called Proclaimers which includes a fairly accurate, although whitewashed presentation of their history. Most don't really know what's in it though.

    This is a fairly large book that perhaps you could request. (again, a reasonable donation would better ensure your getting this publication. Perhaps you could ask questions regarding it, "what is this bethsarim?" "What is this 1975 all about?" "What about these dates mentioned here on page xxx?"

    You can get many scans of WT articles on the net regarding these matters. The older WT articles say much more than what is presented in the book. Many witnesses might be surprised to see with what definiteness and certainty things were stated in the past. You could then show how even recently things such as the Generation 1914, education viewpoints, blood fractions were stated with certainty, but have all changed.

    Another item to request is the WT CD Rom Library. This contains plenty of publications on it, including the Proclaimers book mentioned above, but you will still want the paper version. This CD Library will be most invaluable to you.

    Your biggest problem will be getting past the JW defense mechanisms. YOu have to always appear to be ignorant and sincere. As soon as you appear to be outrightly challenging them, you won't be getting visits anymore.

    Further your most honest answers will come from younger witnesses, or ones that don't seem too bright. They haven't learned to "cover" for the organization, and will simply tell you like it is. "No we can't take blood or we will be disfellowshipped or destroyed" versus "Sure we are able to choose whatever medical treatment we'd like."

    Most Witnesses are disatisfied with many things today. Many are concerned over the amount of young person's leaving, and the problems and politics in the congregations. Strangely though, most will hide these things/feelings and defend it at all costs.

    I wish you well, but I think you will soon see just how limited and powerless you are in helping people realize what seems to be so obviously false. Perhaps you can only drop in something so small, so little each visit or email. Maybe at some point that individual will put it all together.

    Path

  • Frenchy
    Frenchy

    Hello Theo, welcome back.
    It is extremely difficult if not outright impossible for one who has never been on the 'inside' to fully understand the mindset of a 'witness' and for that reason what you are asking is very difficult. I will attempt to give you some basics here for you to work with and perhaps my learned associates here will be able to fill in the gaps that I leave.
    After they make this 'return visit' on you they will attempt to start a 'study' with you. They have been trained to do just that. They will report the time they spend with you and 'count' the 'return visit'. They will try to 'place' a publication with you. Their objective is to 'start a study' with you in that book. These are generally one hour sessions once a week and they try to cover a chapter of the book per session. After a couple of 'studies' they will start asking you to attend the Kingdom Hall (their church) and begin the process of assimilation. That is the general agenda.
    First of all: It's important to understand that their sole objective in calling on you is to 'bring you into the truth'. Whenever it becomes apparent that you are not making 'progress' then they are instructed to terminate the study, move on to more fertile ground.
    Second point: Witnesses equate criticism of 'the Society' with blasphemy against God. Open criticism of the 'mother organization' will shut their minds down quicker than anything else.
    Third: This is something that you can use to your advantage if you are skillfull enough. Witnesses KNOW that they have 'the truth'. They are as certain of this as you are of your name. They feel compelled to expound that truth to others, it is their very reason for being. (They will spare no time or expense in coming to you as long as they feel they are making some sort of 'progress' with you.) They will not hesitate for a second to demonstrate (with the use of Scripture) their reason for believing what they do. As long as they feel that you are 'hungry for the truth' they will persevere in their efforts to 'bring you into the truth'.
    This is where you have to maintain a careful and delicate balance of asking questions that will make them think and then backing off and letting these seeds take root. They are as meticuously programmed to run from 'danger' so you can't push. They are close minded so you cannot expect them to easily grasp subtleties. A problem, I know! But that is what you are dealing with here.
    I would suggest the baiting technique. Ask a few simple questions like what they believe about a burning hell or the Trinity and allow them to express themselves. Don't object but you don't have to necessarily agree either. Tell them you would like to think about what they said... take the book. They'll come back.
    I'll be back shortly with more.

    -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-

  • Frenchy
    Frenchy

    I would not recommend attacking doctrinal matters. I really don't believe that you will make much headway in that department. In the end doctrine is decided upon interpretation of Scripture. They will always defer to the interpretation of the Society.
    I would suggest going after POLICY. You have to be very careful here because you will be casting shadows of doubt about 'mother'. You might try the change in the 'generation' of 1914 thing. You will first have to get familiar with what was taught and what is now being taught. Many witnesses are having trouble dealing with that. The blood fraction thing is another area that is causing some ripples and there is no 'scriptural' basis for the allowance of fractions. There is also some ambiguity surrounding voting now that is causing some confusion. Again, you will have to thoroughly familiarize yourself with these issues before you can take advange of them. It will not be easy.
    The best to you in your efforts.

    -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-

  • AhHah
    AhHah

    Excellent comments!

    I would add that all Christian doctrines are ultimately interpretations of the Bible and Church tradition, none of which can be proven to be irrefutable truth -- they all require faith in the Bible, the translation used, and a common concept of God (trinity / no trinity, etc.).

    So why try to "prove" to a JW that their doctrines are wrong? I believe that some probably are wrong but I cannot "prove" it. I respect their right to believe anything they want to believe.

    A more relevant question to me is whether or not the way that the JWs attempt to enforce total compliance with their current, and ever-changing doctrines, practices and policies is consistent with the spirit of the Christianity as described by Christ's own words in the gospel accounts (which are still subject to interpretation and error, but which JWs respect as an authority). And even more important, does their cult-like control truly makes their lives better, or does it demand so much compliance that individuals suffer under it?

    The chances of helping an active JW to recognize the effects of a cult are probably very slim, but may eventually help them at some point when they are ready. It is still their choice, unless it is a child.

    Edited by - AhHah on 6 November 2000 16:39:28

  • Theophilus
    Theophilus

    In my opinion, any organization that employs the tactics and hurtful deceptions that the Watchtower Society does, which have time and again been exposed by your fellow posters on this board, is a danger. Any organization that intentionally deceives it's members and destroys families and shatters individuals must be exposed and called to account. How many people have to suffer under Pharisaical burdens and oppressive regulations before we stop saying it's a matter of opinion? How many people have to die for lack of a transfusion, because an organization claims the Bible tells them so? How many? For me, one is enough.
    I wept last night as I read the outright lies in the JW literature used to deceive unsuspecting people? I became so angry and I thought about the suffering of so many who are deceived. Enough is enough.
    The Watchtower is a drug more dangerous than heroin or crack. Your fellow posters have said numerous time, those in the society are brainwashed, programmed, I wold add slaves to this organization.
    The organization must be called to account.
    Silence in the face of injustice and oppression is a horendous crime.
    It is the least Christian response I can think of. That kind of Silence screams.

  • RedhorseWoman
    RedhorseWoman

    Difficult task. Very difficult. I've been trying some of the above techniques (although I must admit that I've probably not handled it as well as I should) on an unmoderated active JW discussion board I stumbled across. I've asked them pointed questions about blood fractions, loss of privileges for those JW men who grow a beard, allowed pagan/spiritistic practices in wedding celebrations, and similar things. So far, I have gotten no answers from them...just accusations that I'm twisting things. I don't know if I'll get anywhere at all there, but I'm hoping to plant a few seeds there at the very least.

  • AhHah
    AhHah

    Theo,

    I couldn't agree you with you more! It is very nice to hear a non-ex-JW say those things for a change.

  • Theophilus
    Theophilus

    Here's a copy of the e-mail I just sent the JW's who came to my door.
    Please join me in praying that our discussions and meetings would either plant the seed of water an existing seed to bloom. Thanks!

    Jeff & Daryl,

    Let me begin by apologizing for the unfortunate delay to our meeting. My schedule has been overwhelming of late, as I'm sure you can relate. I would ask your continued patience as I look for an opening. Are there particular days that work better for you? Weekends? weeknights?
    In the meantime, Iv'e been doing much research and have a couple of requests...

    Despite my efforts, I have been unable to find any documentation to identify the translators of your New World Testament. I feel that it is essential to validate the authority under which something as important as the scriptures were translated. This is key for a number of reasons. If you could provide this information or request this information from the WTBTS, I would be most grateful.
    Secondly, I noticed in reading the booklet "Should You Believe in the Trinity," that a number of the quotes used contained elipses and were not completely documented. I would appreciate if you could provide the complete quotes or a list of source materials for the quotes which includes the ISBN number or the Library of Congress number. I anticipate that the WTBTS should be able to provide you with that information.
    Please feel free to make any requests of me as well.

    Thanks again for your forbearance. I anticipate that we will be able to meet soon.
    Sincerely,
    Scott Boor

    What do you think? Ignorant and innocent enough?

  • Pathofthorns
    Pathofthorns

    Your questions are ignorant and innocent enough. They will come back. But likely they are, or will be with an "elder" in the religion.

    You definitely won't recieve the answers you are looking for. Your question about the translaters of the NWT will simply be met with the line that the translation should be judged on its own merrits, not on the qualifications of the translators. Then they will show you some quotes from a couple of "authorities" stating how good of a translation it is.

    Possibly they will show you some scriptures in another translation that are rendered in obscure old english, and compare it with the NWT. Personally speaking, I still use my NWT, and find it adequate, but I think one should compare with several translations for the most accurate understandings.

    As for your Trinity brochure question, they will simply "allow" you to ramble, then switch topics to something else. They are not likely to consider any of the original source material if you have it.

    Of course, you never know. I listened to some things and look where it got me .

    What it comes down to is that they will be back, but your questions simply will have zero effect.

    Perhaps Frenchy has suggestions for something more effective.

    Path

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