Who did Jesus die for?

by Perry 55 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

lovelylil

perry,
you are correct that its the heirs of the convenant who are God's sons and daughters. Those chosen who are faithful to him and his son and are set aside by God. But for what? To be co-heirs with Christ. This time we live in (gospel age) is for the choosing of those who will reign 1,000 years with Christ - this is one important thing that Charles Russell got right but Rutherford changed his views on it.
Of all the rest of mankind - once the kingdom is ruling, they will have their eyes opened to truth and there hearts will be turned to God and they will have the opportunity to choose to accept Christ sacrifice on thier behalf. Right now only some have their "spiritual" eyes opened to accept Christ - The Church.
The bible says God PUT the nation of Isreal into spiritual darkness. If he did, then how can he destroy them for not believing his son is the Messiah? That would not be loving nor just. God is love and we have to recogncile the whole bible together.
All the ancient prophets fortold the ressurection of the righteous (believers) and unrighteous (non-believers) and that the non-believers go thru a judgement time but nowhere is there a mass destruction mentioned in the Bible. A loving God would not destroy people who are living in this unjust world, dealing with imperfections, have had their spiritual eyes blinded, ect. for not believing in him. Only once these obstacles are removed will ALL have opportunity to accept Christ's sacrifice for them. Only the Church (Christ's Body) is being set aside now for the purpose of reigning with the Lord. No other people are being dealt with now in this time.
When "we" in the Church (believers) partake of the bread and wine, we are essentially asking Jesus to cover our sins now in this time period as we are accepting his sacrifice for our covering during this time. His sacrifice does not yet cover any outside the convenant. But it is also why if we turn away from Christ after this, we have no more covering for our sins left.
In the OT it prophesised that not only will all people in modern times be brought back and taught about God but so will the ancient nations of Sodom, Gemmorah, Tyre, Sidon, Egypt and all the others that the Isrealites killed off. Some say God was cruel to allow this but he promises to bring them all back in the future. There are ample texts in the OT that speak about this and Jesus himself spoke about Sodom and Gemmorah being alive again during the "judgement day".
If you would like to talk more about the points you made and the ones I am making here, please pm me. Thanks, Lilly
Perry

nowhere is there a mass destruction mentioned in the Bible. A loving God would not destroy people who are living in this unjust world, dealing with imperfections, have had their spiritual eyes blinded, ect. for not believing in him.
Lilly, I concede that there will be a resurrection of both believer and unbeliever. Some of your claims seem to go beyond scripture though. The whole point of God's argument in the copious scriptures that I cited in this thread is that people are totally incapable of appropriately approaching Him at all, on their own. When and if they do, it is because God himself enables them by grace, "so that no man may boast". They are already a completely ruined species. We're not his children and as such he has no obligation toward us. By all intents and purposes we are already extinct, being unable to survive un-aided in our natural habitat - freedom. Humans exist for a short time in total captivity to sin, do a few amusing things while they're here, and then they die, just like the parrots on my farm. How can God kill an extinct species? We are already dead. Because we are much smarter than parrots, we are able to erect illusions to escape that grim reality, yes. But, I'm sick of illusions.
God owes us nothing. Calling Him unjust for not saving us is the opposite of Paul's message in Romans and will get us nowhere in God's economy where the last will be first and the first will be last. You make it sound like, if we don't make it in this first wave of opportunity, there will be other oportunities, no big deal. This is a different gospel than the one I read. Exactly who will rule and over whom I'm sure will be revealed more clearly in time. Overly compartmentalizing God's word to certain groups and time periods is precisely the WT madness that we all escaped from.
If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. - Because they were essentially already dead.
You see, after I'm dead, I'm not sure what state I will be in if I haven't laid hold of the kingdom while I was alive. If God has granted me a prize, why not seize it now? I was born into a cursed captivity and I'll literally be damned if I don't accept God's offer, by his grace. If it's God's will, I'd storm the gates of heaven itself to get in and out of this miserable condition.
11:12
"From R388 the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers F243 violence, and violent men take F244 it by force.
"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
mouthy

LIL...You mentioned you believe we will live on earth,tell me why then hebrews 11:16 Tells us that the Prophets of old were waiting for a heavenly one??? Can I ask you a very personal Queston? What religion are you?You seem to go beyond scripture on occasions.
myelaine

dear Perrry...
you said "You make it sound like, if we don't make it in this first wave of opportunity, there will be other oportunities"
In Matthew 25:14 Jesus says...For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them...then in verse 31-34...When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on th throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world"...verse 41,46...Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.' And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life'.
So this clearly speaks of a second "opportunity", however...if someone, in his lifetime figures that they will wait till the next "round" because they would rather not accept it now (for as many reasons as the day is long) ...well that attitude doesn't fly with God!
plus....I'm reminded of the lazy servant who was delivered one talent and hid it in the ground...he loses it and he is cast into outer darkness, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth!
love michelle
p.s. Because Jesus preached to the Spirits in prison all the way back to Noah's day(1 Peter 3:19-20) the ones of the nations that will be seperated one from the other would seem to be those that have been purposefully "blinded" by God...until the time as He arrives...this doesn't include anyone that has had their nose in a Bible for any amount of time, but the (for lack of a better term)...naturally righteous/unrighteous...ahhh..I can't remember the scripture..those that do by nature the things of the law are a law unto themselves or something like that. imo.
Yes Lovelylil...we have a gracious and merciful God but He is also a Holy God.
lovelylil

Michelle, you made a good point.
Mouthy, I am not going beyond scripture. The ancient prophets were awaiting the kingdom not made by hands - the heavenly one. It is a heavenly one in that it is God's kingdom, not made from man. Man was created on earth to live on it forever. I am not saying we will never go to heaven. Why will we receive a heavenly body if not to enter the heavenly or spirit realm? I do believe we will be in heaven for a time and will always be allowed to enter heaven and pass between heaven and earth. Kind of like the Angels did and Jesus also. He materialized and then vanished. This is hard to comprehend about our future - even Paul say "we don't quite know what we will be" but I am sure it will be wonderful!
But just because the bible says "heavenly kingdom" it does not mean the kingdom is geographically going to be in heaven forever. Did you read the scriptures I posted in Revelation. The kingdom (new Jerusalum) comes down to the earth. That is the end result. What happens from now until then, there are many different views.
Jesus taught his followers to pray for the God's kingdom to come to earth and for his will in heaven to be done on earth. (Matthew 6) Also, Peter says "we are awaiting a new heaven and new earth" - in this righteousness will dwell.
Perry - also, I am not going beyond what is written. There will be a seperating of sheep and goats but that is when Christ takes the throne on earth. That is why it says in Matthew 25: 31 "when the Lord comes in his glory with all the angels with him". If he was not coming to earth in his glory it would not say "when he comes". Does this make sense? Do you think that this seperating is done in one literal day? I don't believe so. I believe that Christ will give many ample opportunity to change their ways and repent, just like the church does now. Although they will not be given the same reward. The reward of the church is that they are not subject to the second death, they are imortal like the Lord. If those brought back of the rest of mankind stubbornly refuse to change, they are classified as goats. (stubborn) and only they are cut off.
I believe this is more in line with Christ's character. He will open blind eyes, heal, teach and then give the rest of mankind opportunity to obey him. Even satan will be binded during this time. I believe it is after the 1,000 reign. I say this for two reasons:
the first is this: Why would satan be bound 1,000 years and then let loosed again to "test" mankind if only the church (believers) will be saved? Aren't we not tested now? It makes sense that those unbelievers are given a period of time to learn, change and then THEY are tested. We are being tried and tested now. When I say "we" of course meaning those professing to be in the new convenant.
The second is Revelation 20:4-6 says that Christ's heirs who reign with him for 1,000 years are blessed as they have part in the first resurrection and the second death (symbolized by lake of fire or eternal fire) has no power over THEM. Then states in verse 4 that "the rest of the dead did not come to life until after the 1,000 years ended. You see Christ's body has one resurrection - all the rest of mankind the second one. This is scriptural. Also this is not the same as the two classes of Christian the WT teaches. There is only one and they will be in heaven but eventually come back to earth with the Lord.
Whatever we believe, I know one thing for sure, God will carry out his plan in the most loving way possible for everyone. He is loving and just. So I just try to put my life in his hands and know he is capable.
BTW mouthy, I left the Witnesses three years ago when I felt Christ calling me out of that organization into a personal relationship with him. I don't really attend any church regularly but sometimes drive a few hours away to attend a "free bible student" group. They are very open minded to scripture interpretation, within reason that is. I often tell my hubby that since we see in a "hazy mirror" like Paul said, our interpretations are based partly on conjecture. I find it fascinating to discuss the bible but ultimately we will have to see how everything plays out in the future. I do think we live in scary but exciting times. Lilly
Fe2O3Girl

To whom is the Ransom paid?
If the question is too hard, just say so. Or if I don't merit a reply.........OK.
lovelylil

hi 203 girl,
To ransom means to release. In the case of Jesus dying for us - it means through his death he is releasing us from the fate of death. The ransom was complete (this is a better term than the WT's "ransom paid") upon Christs death on the cross. This is why he said "it is finished" prior to dying. Upon ascending to heaven he not only released all of mankind from future death (death will be brought to nothing Reve. 21) but opened the way for fallen man to approach God again through Jesus our mediator and high priest. The ransom being completed means all will receive a resurrection. The WTs belief that Christ went up to heaven, entered before God and somehow paid a ransom note is laughable. The bible uses figurative language. But we can be sure the ransom was completed on the Cross.
At this time, only believers accept this arrangement. When they feel called to be Christians, repent are baptized and then recieve Holy Spirit, they already pass from death to life. Believers receive the first resurrection and are not subject to second death. The deposit of Holy Spirit is our assurance that we have been recieved as a son of God and have passed from death to life. Upon remaining faithful to Christ we recieve the first resurrection.
Although all of mankind was released from death by Christ on the cross - death has not been brought to nothing yet for them to benefit. If they do not believe in Jesus and what he has done for us, they will not be part of the first resurrection. But ultimately will be resurrected and taught righteousness. Then their "spiritual eyes" will be opened. Believers have their spiritual eyes opened now. Later the rest of the dead
How they will learn righteousness (which basically means to be God fearing) I don't know. The bible ends abruptly as far as the rest of the dead coming to life without mentioning what happens to them after that. But I don't believe they are brought back then sent to everlasting torment in hellfire. Fire is used to represent total destruction. If they are stubborn and unrepentent even knowing Christ is ruling, only then will they be completey cut off from earth. Fire is used figuaratively. We have to recogncile the bible as a whole. The scriptures say that Christ dying for us was "good news" (gospel). It is not good news if 99.9% of mankind will die as sinners when God knows Satan is misleading them. And they are dealing with depression, anxiety, imperfection and a host of other problems. And we certainly cannot say "God is love" but yet only chooses to save a few people in relation to the whole world. The few chosen are to be heirs with Christ. They do not represent all saved. When all is done, the majority of mankind will be saved. Now that is good news! Lilly
mouthy

"free bible student" they are a break away for the witnesses I believe
mouthy

That should read FROM the JW
lovelylil

Mouthy,
Actually the Jehovah's Witnesses broke away from Russell's bible students. And the free bible students also broke away from Russell's bible students. They do not worship Russell like some bible student groups and they believe a lot of what mainstream Christianity teaches. This caused a rift as many BS feel like the Witnesses that they have the only truth. "free bible students" don't believe that and they even fellowship with other denominations.
Unfortunately the only group near me is an hour and a half away but I try to make the drive once a month. When I am not there I sometimes go to a Baptist church in my area that I like too. I don't really feel I have to belong to one religious institution but rather to Christ alone - so I an free to attend any Christian church or bible group. Its great because I meet so many great people and learn the varying views about things.
Lilly

Who did Jesus die for?

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