Who did Jesus die for?

by Perry 55 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • M.J.
    M.J.
    What person was not affected by Adam's sin? If we all die because of Adam's sin, then this verse seems to me to say that we will all be made alive through Christ's sacrifice. if Adam's sin could wipe out the whole human race, why couldn't Christ's sacrifice give life to the whole human race?

    I see a little WTS-spin in this statement. Sure, Adam opened the floodgates, but we die because of OUR OWN sin, not because of anyone else's sin (including Adam's). In other words, Christ paid our personal debts on an individual basis.

  • mouthy
    mouthy

    Grandmother...what a small world...me too!!!

    So many on here think we are nuts to believe that we are "born again"But I am so happy HE came looking for me when I was blind & opened my eyes enabling me to see I was in a CULT!!!! I was judgemental, liar, rude, puffed up,condeming, a slave, adoring "brothers" who could do no wrong in MY eyes. I am so glad myelaine your my adopted grand-daughter (((((HUGS)))) I had alot of those in the WT -but when I didnt believe Jesus came invisably in 1914- they ran away. Wont talk to me any more.

  • mouthy
    mouthy

    but we die because of OUR OWN sin, not because of anyone else's sin (including Adam's). In other words, Christ paid our personal debts on an individual basis.

    Yes he paid for mine & Boy their was & is a lot of them...If he died for my sin only it would be huge. But as I said before he has thrown them in the lake & posted a sign NO FISHING!!!!! Thank GOD

  • hemp lover
    hemp lover

    "The good news for the lost is that if we do not have faith, we need merely ask for it." What if you ask for it and still don't have it?

  • bebu
    bebu

    An interesting analogy, perry. I'm sure to be thinking about it all day, especially since I was chewing on the idea of freedom earlier this morning.

    If you will not ask for faith it is because you can't.

    This is where it seems to always get tricky...

    I believe that God goes before (prevenient grace) us in all our actions. I also believe that we have freedom, REAL freedom in choice. It is a mystery how God can preserve our true freedom, AND choose us as well. It is a paradox on the level we are accustomed to, one of the biggest mysteries about.

    Mouthy.... LOVE THE AVATAR!!!!!!!! KEEP IT!!!!!!!!

    bebu

  • Fe2O3Girl
    Fe2O3Girl

    I started a topic some months ago "To whom is the Ransom paid?" I was interested to hear mainstream Christians' views on the subject. I think it is related to this topic. I didn't see replies from any of the Christians who have posted here.

    I would still appreciate your thoughts on this.

    Rachel

  • mouthy
    mouthy

    Mouthy.... LOVE THE AVATAR!!!!!!!! KEEP IT!!!!!!

    Thanks > Grace

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    He died for ALL.

    Paul said that this fact would be testified to in due time. Eternal life refers to those who will sit on thrones with Christ who are obedient in following him in this age. They will be imortal like Christ and rule in the kingdom with him for 1,000 years. And all others of mankind will be raised to life but not on thrones to rule. They will be subjects of the kingdom and experience all its blessings.

    All will be saved as Christ will open mankinds eyes of understanding and turn their hearts back to him and our heavenly father. The teachings of all being destroyed or going to hellfire for not believeing in God now is a total false teaching made up by men to enslave other men into their religious systems. Also these teachings came from misunderstanding the bibles use of figurative language.

    However, they will all (Christ's heirs and all others) be in the same place eventually and I believe that place in here on earth. Read Revelation chapter 21 - it gives a beautiful destription of the New Jerusalem coming down to EARTH. This is the place for mankind to dwell forever, not heaven. This is where God will be with us and spread his tent over us. Many believe those who are heirs with Christ will go to heaven first and then come back. There are different views on this but the point being that the eternal dwelling place of man is EARTH - completely restored anew that is. Lilly

  • Perry
    Perry

    Hi Hemp! You wrote:

    "The good news for the lost is that if we do not have faith, we need merely ask for it." What if you ask for it and still don't have it?

    I believe that we must keep on asking and seeking as advised by the Teacher himself. Why he gives faith to people at different times, I don't know. Why did Thomas need to put his hand in the spear wound "before he would believe". Surely, he had been much exposed to Christ's teachings before his death. Why did Christ Himself the Examplar need to learn obedience from the things he suffered? There are mysteries.

    But, I believe one thing is for sure. The fact that you asked, especially if from the standpoint of an orphan, was a gift from God. There is no doubt in my mind that if you keep asking it will be given, and at the right time. When it comes, you'll know that it was the exact opposite of what your flesh would like to do, and that it was a gift.

    Mouthy! Yes , me too!

    Praise God and give him glory!

    bebu wrote:

    It is a mystery how God can preserve our true freedom, AND choose us as well.

    Yes, it is strange bebu. But, somehow he does it. He is doing it with me. The best way I can describe it is like when an adult guides a childs hand when the child is learning to write his ABC's and her first words. The child feels like they are doing it, and gets excited. Then, they may push the adult's hand away to try it for themselves. They fail. The loving adult doesn't punish the child for being too independent. But the adult patietnly and lovingly guides the child's hand again, and agian, and again, and again. The child begains to trust the guidance until the tasks are learned and the teacher moves the student on to more difficult things.

    How are all student freedoms preserved in all teacher/student relationships? Through submission (permission) , and trust (faith), and acceptance by the teacher.

    Lily wrote:

    He died for ALL.

    It seems to me that God really has only three choices with humans. He will save all of them; He will save some of them; or He will save none of them. There are different views within mainstream Christianity. Most believe that God will save some of them, although he certainly has all three options. However, the point is that God is under no obligation whatsovever to save any of them. They are all fallen Adam's offspring. They are not His children. Whether God chooses to adopt some of Adam's children or all is an excellent study. I personally believe that God has reserved his reasoning as to why he chooses some and not others to himself. To draw a comparison, in my opening story about the kind couple who adopted a little girl. Why did they chose her over others that were there? Only he and his wife know. One thing is for sure, they did not chose her because they felt she deserved more compassion than the others or because they had a greater obligation toward her than to the others. It was strictly an act of unmittigated kindness ....grace.

    I believe that the Scriptures I cited above make it clear that Christ's sacrifice is only applied effectually only to those whom God gave him. Whether that is a small group, a large group numbering in the hundreds of millions or even billions, God knows. Clearly it is not our place to judge. God does the choosing not us.

    In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son." 10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

    14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

    25 As he says in Hosea: "I will call them 'my people' who are not my people; and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," 26 and, "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"

    I believe that God has adopted those that he has chosen from among Adam's kids.... out of his sheer mercy and for his own good pleasure; much the same way that humans sometimes adopt other people's kids.

    Praise God for his mercy and may we never take it lightly!

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    Adams natural "kids" die physically forever(b/c of sin)...but upon "adoption" through the second Adam the "kids" are given spirit life forever.(b/c of cleansing)...

    interestingly...when a parent adopts a child the child doesn't necessarily have much say in the fact that he gets picked over some other child, but "scripturally speaking"...it is when we are adult that we are asked to CHOOSE our "parent"...

    michelle

    Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples. And I will wait on the LORD, who hides His face from the house of Jacob; and I will hope in Him. Here am I and the children whom the LORD has given me! We are for signs and wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, who dwells in Mount Zion. (Isaiah 8:16-18)

    see Hebrews 2:14 also...

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