by Seeker4 356 Replies latest jw friends
JWs can even legally separate from an "apostate" mate on the grounds of "spiritual endangerment." My parents suggested that to my wife.
My Bible says that Jesus said Jehovah did not approve of divorce on any grounds, but allowed it on only one condition (adultery).
Of course my Bible also said something about what would happen to those who added to the Bible . . . . . .
Yeah, Big Tex, but they have this Talmud that comes on a CD-ROM and includes all kinds of explanations and exceptions and rationalizations around what the Bible says. It is called the Watchtower Library CD-ROM, and the most current doctrines from it take precedence over any direct statements in the Bible. Until Jehovah corrects the current doctrien, of course. Then those new corrections will take precedence.
< sigh! >
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
Interesting reference to "plugging the leaks" at headquarters. Any more info on that?
Garybuss has contacts inside Bethel. If anyone knows anything about this; it would be Gary. I am sending him a PM asking him if he has anything to say on this thread.
One of my biggest problems with Jehovah's Witnesses is that they deliberately short circuit one's decision making ability. Self-determination (and self-realization being implied) is paramount in Christianity. And yet this sect tries every way it can to prohibit one from choosing for themselves. I saw this in my wife, who stayed in this religion for 13 years after I left. I argued every point, showed her every flaw, every inconsistency (starting with 2 eyewitnesses needed for abuse). Every time she would agree with me, agree that what I said was correct and yet still she went to meetings. Why?
Because (as she told me recently) she did not believe in herself. She did not trust her judgment versus the judgement of the Society. Logic, and reason and everything she saw said this sect was not correct and had lied to her. Yet she could not trust that which was staring her in the face. And all because she had been taught from birth to not trust herself but to put all of her trust and belief in what the Watchtower said. And the Watchtower told her to go to meetings no matter what.
For such ones, the only way they can ever find their way out is for the dysfunction of Jehovah's Witnesses to touch their life personally. My wife only left when the cruelty of the elders changed their focus from her to our son. Then she allowed herself to make the leap out.
We make the leap when we're ready, and not before.
Chris
Auld, I have a good feeling about your case. You know how sometimes you meet someone and they are strikingly handsome/beautiful. And you're in awe of them and can't stop staring. And then they open their mouths and you get to know them better and now they're not only ugly on the inside but even their appearance isn't all that anymore?
Well, that's what a person who is infatuated with the "truth" is going through. I was deeply infatuated with it. And I remember I read the magazines so quickly that I had to keep getting the previous bound volumes to keep reading. But going to the meetings and getting to know the "friends" and then switching halls because I thought something must be wrong with *my* hall. And then seeing the same crap goes on everywhere ...
Look at me now! Infatuation can only take you so far. If your wife is in love with you, YOU WILL WIN! Believe me! She will not want to lose you. It may take some time but if you keep loving her and giving her what she needs and wants, she's not going to trade you in. Good husbands are hard to find. Don't forget that. And a stupid woman will let a good husband go. A smart woman will hold onto her man.
You should think about moving areas. It will be easier for her to skip meetings if you do. Try to plan fun things on meeting nights and Sundays. After she misses for a month it will be easier and easier to keep missing. Pretty soon the meetings are stale, the people get on your nerves, you no longer look forward to seeing them.
With my husband it was so funny. He said, "I'm NOT going to stop going to meetings. I don't care what you do but I'm not leaving the truth!" Do you know that he NEVER went to a single meeting after I quit going for good! He got all dressed up one Sunday to go and sat on the couch and never got up to go. It was that easy once I officially made my stand that and told him that if I had to go to a single meeting I would literally puke.
Hi Big Tex,
Because (as she told me recently) she did not believe in herself. She did not trust her judgment versus the judgement of the Society. Logic, and reason and everything she saw said this sect was not correct and had lied to her. Yet she could not trust that which was staring her in the face. And all because she had been taught from birth to not trust herself but to put all of her trust and belief in what the Watchtower said. And the Watchtower told her to go to meetings no matter what.
I know exactly what you are saying, because I was like your wife in not trusting myself. Being born and raised as a jw, the scripture was drilled into me, "The heart is more treacherous than anything and is desperate." That, to me, meant I could not trust myself. The jws teach people to be co-dependent with the religion.
Just couldn't resist putting in my 2 CDN cents.
ESTEE
Welcome to the new ones coming to the board. Haven't been here really long myself. As I stated earlier, my husband and I are on the same wavelength but he does not post here. Not that we ever intend to go back to the hall, but as a point if asked he could say that he has never been to apostate sights. It really doesn't matter anymore, however, and just yesterday I was encouraging him to post.
It has indeed been a strange journey for our family. Hubbie and I are not disfellowshipped, but wish to be. But as a matter of stubborness, I will not make the first move. They will have to come and get me. I don't think anyone wants the job.
I made mention that my daughter had been involved in some normal teenage things. I said that the JC chairman had made an assesment of the situation and told my husband something bizarre. The girls my daughter were friends with were all good students, 13 to 16 years old. I said that my daughter had just begun to go out in a car that one of us, her parents, or the parents of the other girls was not driving. I know that she had not been involved in any wrongdoing for any length of time, or as the elders would say, formed "a pattern of wrongdoing."
The chairman of the committee told my fellow elder husband that "this sounds like the girl gangs in my affluent neighborhood who smoke, take drugs, have casual sex with men for initiation, and are lesbians." When he came home and told me this I can't imagine the look on my face. It was so far-fetched that I could not imagine that it would really have anything to do with my daughter. How could I have been so stupid? How could I have trusted that these men had any interest in my child whatsoever when this was this man's assessment of girls he did not know? Further, we live in a nice area (although not an "affluent neighborhood" like his) and there are no "girl gangs" that I am aware of anywhere near hear, and why would this be his view of young sheep in the congregation before hearing the facts?
When her turn came in the back room, this man leaned back in his chair, crossed his arms, and said, O.K., let's have it!"
Well, doesn't that say volumes about his superior attitude of authority? He went on to tell my daughter that the girls had said that everything was her idea -it wasn't but is that the point? He was lying to play the girls against each other. He asked over and over who the "ringleader" was. Since there wasn't one, she kept telling him that there wasn't. He would have none of that. He had already determined that there was "a gang" and by golly he meant to make them admit it. Finally he just forced her to name one of the girls. She gave a name, but he did not seem happy with it, as he had another girl in mind.
After a couple of hours, with the main thrust being to name the ringleader, he began to ask about the boy. She was not alone with him. She met him across the mall with a couple of her friends. They began to infer that fornication had taken place. She said no and they closed the meeting.
After it was over, my husband asked why they were talking about fornication. Was there any accusation of such? No, the chairman told him, but he said if it was him he would take his daughter to the Dr. to "see if she'd had sex."
After hubbie told me this, I was flabbergasted. I told him I would never try to make her submit to this. If you demonstrate a lack of trust in your child to this degree, you will destroy any relationship you have. She said she did not do anything with this boy, and we needed to stand by her.
She was called in for a second meeting, Sunday afternoon, after the meeting that morning. She and her dad got to the hall at four in the afternoon, and were ushered into the second school to wait. They sat there for FOUR AND ONE HALF HOURS.
After nine at night, they started the meeting. Immediately they began again with the fornication issue. "Is there anything else you need to tell us?" they kept saying. When she answered no, some (there were five men) would shake their heads and say NO, NO and others would groan. They made her read scriptures about David and Bathsheeba, then Achan withholding information, then Annanias and Saphira playing false to Holy Spirit and they fell down dead. One would say "Is this the truth or is this what you think we want to hear?" another would say, "Now that's not really how it happened, is it?" The chairman said "When I was a teenager if I was in a car with a girl, I would have tried something, so why should I believe this boy didn't?" This went on for TWO AND ONE HALF HOURS even though by this time her dad tried to stop them and tell him he believed her. They ignored him. Finally, one said, "You don't expect us to believe you, do you?"
They made my child read the scripture at Rev. 21:8-"But as for the cowards and those without faith and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers and fornicators and those practicing spiritism and idolaters and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur. This means the second death."
These men had never uttered the first kind word to my child. There were sneers, humiliation, degradation, and belittling, but no counsel. They went on and on. Finally, they had "some questions" to ask her. The chairmand asked, "What is it about Jehovah's organization that you feel is too restrictive? When she answered that she did not, he said, "Well, you must or you wouldn't have done what you did, now answer the question!" Each man had two questions like this one, that could not be answered without incriminating yourself. They took turns, going around the table, until ten questions were asked. Of course, they did not wait for answers, because they were designed to degrade and humiliate. By this time, my child was crying hysterically out of frustration. I might add that it was around midnight by this time, and she was most surely exhausted.
They stopped and said they wanted to talk. When they came back in, the chairman said that it seemed that her "sorrow" was worldly and not godly, and she was disfellowshipped, and if she was disfellowshipped when Armageddon came, that she "could take some comfort in knowing that Jehovah can read hearts."
It was after one in the morning and she had school the next morning.
There is still much more, if you are still interested.
Just couldn't resist putting in my 2 CDN cents.
I'm glad you did.
Neither you nor Skally are giving people a way OUT
Contraire. You cannot possibly know this as fact. Please do not state it as such.
I will admit that I went a bit over the top with the podium bludgeoning. I am sorry. I did warn viewers it would be somewhat caustic. Brute honesty IS caustic. I'm sorry I did not make myself more clear as to whom I was truly directing my thoughts to. But I won't apologize for the jest of my posts on the subject of hypocritical active elders and other higher ranking male members.
I am not speaking to those whom have no authority in their halls. I'm speaking to the higher RANKING MALE MEMBERS. Forgive me if it appeared I was speaking of all ACTIVE JWS WHO POST HERE. I'm pretty sure though that if you re-view the posts, I am speaking to elders and other higher ranking male members. This is what I refer to as RANKAGE.
I am much like johnny in that we both are very active OFFLINE in dealing with this lethal organization and its endorsers who stand at my door acting as if they truly care about my well being. Much of that includes talking to the public, at their door, just as jws do.
Yet, I stand by the crux of my messages here about how highly hypocritical it is for the RANKAGE to be here, yet not tell the members that it's okay for them to also be here. Like many things I heard as a child and tried to question what I was being told as truth, why are higher ranking jw male members posting and reading here but the flock is forbidden? I was always told it was because it is the way jehovah wants it....blah....
I do not understand the amount of fear that you ALLOW this book publishing corp to have over your lives. I won't apologize for this either. Just try to get me to fully comprehend why you are ALLOWING the clock to tick away on your lives and that of your families lives by waiting for some opportune time to leave? I just don't get this type of fear. Please, don't hate me for it. But if you don't understand why I don't understand, then we just will have to both be misunderstood.
Incidently, I don't sit around wondering or counting how many people may have exited this ROT of a religion due to my diligence in exposing it's corruption and deception. I do know though that MY WORK has been very effective in informing and educating the general public on the dangers of this organizations policies. Especially it's policies that govern the very lives of its most innocent and helpless members...the children.
As in any relation-ship, love only carries It so far. There must be brute honesty for love to flourish. Otherwise it WILL die. Truth IS love. Fear of this worldly book publishing corp is only going to keep delaying your life. And it will alkso keep the wheel of the tower well-oiled.
sKally
Skally: Contraire. You cannot possibly know this as fact.
I was only stating it in relation to your posts in this forum and on this thread. I do know it for a fact, in that context. I never said your work doesn't serve any purpose in keeping people out who have never been in, but it thoroughly sucks as a method of getting people out or giving them a way out. You didn't recommend your "announce it from the platform" approach as a way of keeping people from becomeing JWs, but it would also suck for that purpose.
There is no long-term benefit that I could see as possibly coming from an elder deciding to do that unless that was just the only way they felt they could be at peace with themselves afterward. Since LittleToe effectively did what you suggest, why don't you PM and ask whether he would generally recommend that course for other elders?
Skally: for the RANKAGE to be here
So that I could better understand your point I tried to find the word "rankage" in the Merriam-Webster Online dictionary. This is what I got:
The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary. Click on a spelling suggestion below or try again using the search box to the right.
If you are, once again, trying to use a variation on "rank and file" to refer to the elders, please stop. It makes you seem stupid, and I don't think you really are. Here's what the same dictionary says about rank and file.
Main Entry: rank and file
Function: noun
1 : the enlisted personnel of an armed force
2 : the individuals who constitute the body of an organization, society, or nation as distinguished from the leaders
You keep trying to use the term as a reference to leaders, and it means everyone EXCEPT the leaders. I have asked you several times to stop misusing the word, for your own sake.
Skally: Fear of this worldly book publishing corp is only going to keep delaying your life.
As I said before, you are making a HUGE and incorrect assumption about the fear and uncertainty that prevents people from doing as you suggest. They don't fear the corporation. If they did they wouldn't be posting or even reading here, now. They fear the fallout on their lives and they are (very sensibly) taking time and considering carefully what they want to do.
Your suggestion that these men rush to action evidences a gross lack of concern for the long term well-being of others. Or do you only have love conditionally for those who act in ways you personally approve? If so, in what way, exactly, does your version of love differ from the version I left? You aren't stupid. Start proving it.
AuldSoul
