In the big scheme of things, Jesus'....

by SixofNine 74 Replies latest jw friends

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  MegaDude

  Alan F's response reminds me of someone we call in Texas "All hat and no cattle." You can thump your chest all you want and say "Whatta deal Jesus had! Of course I'd do it. What's a measly impaling on a cross in comparison to being King of the Universe?" You'd fill your pants and run like a chicken if you were offered the same deal. I'd probably be right there with you too.

  I don't know how much Jesus knew or what his faith was, or what perfection feels like. I do know that eyewitnesses record he was "in an agony," "sweat like drops of blood," that he asked God not to put him through it. In other words, it seems to indicate he was terribly afraid. How much did he remember of his previous life in heaven? Maybe nothing except he knew he had lived before by scripture. I don't know. So how much faith is that? I do know the experience he was going to undergo was completely new to him, that he was going to suffer to a degree he had never undergone before. The Bible indicates his endurance, by whatever measurable degree that was, perfect or not, was pushed to the absolute wall. He cried out, "My God, my God. Why have you forsaken me?" That doesn't sound like someone in perfect control to me, but rather someone who has reached his breaking point.

  What is moving to me personally is the fact that if Jesus was who he said he was (something I'm still studying) that he was a powerful spiritual superbeing that was the son of God, that he was willing to undergo the experience at all. Why not destroy the imperfect part or parts of the universe and start over? I don't see anything trivial about choosing to undergo his human experience, no matter what the "reward" was. He already had his position in heaven. He didn't gain anything as far as a heavenly "promotion" by choosing to die for the world. He was going to return to the "glory he had before the world was." No bump in status that I can see. So what was he coming here for? That's the part that moves me.
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  siegswife

  The main cause of Christ's suffering was that he became 'accursed' by the manner of his death according to the Mosaic law. THAT was very hard for him to deal with. Of course, it was physically trying also. Still, it grieved him deeply knowing that he was put in that spiritual state by dying that sort of death.
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  Nomen Clature

  The main cause of Christ's suffering was that he became 'accursed' by the manner of his death according to the Mosaic law. THAT was very hard for him to deal with. Of course, it was physically trying also. Still, it grieved him deeply knowing that he was put in that spiritual state by dying that sort of death.

  Why do you say that?
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  siegswife

  The Bible says that. In the Mosaic Law, anyone hanged upon a torture stake (or cross?) is accursed. It was by His become accursed instead of us that frees us from our sins. Galatians 3:13 Because Jesus is not REALLY accursed and actually fulfilled the Law, is the reason that the Law became invalid. Because of His righteousness, the Law was made to be ineffective. He carried our sins in His death, and by His resurrection He opened the way for salvation. Colossians 2:13,14 Still, since the Law was still in effect BEFORE he died, he was considered lawless according to God's Law.
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  Nomen Clature

  Ok, but knowing what he knew, why would that particular thing bother him in the least. As I recall, he did not have any sentimentality for the law, did he?

  Seems like that particular point would have cheered him on.

  Would you mind posting the scriptures showing the point you made about the mosaic law?
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  siegswife

  I have to disagree with your opinion that Jesus didn't have affection for the Law. He loved the Law of God. The Law brought blessings when obeyed and curses when it wasn't. The Law was righteous, people were not. Let me first share this scripture if you will. I'll be using the NWT but I am not one of JW's at this time.
  Hebrews 1:9 You loved righteousness and hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your partners.

  Galatians 3:13 Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written, "Accursed is every man hanged upon a stake."

  Colossians 2:13,14 Furthermore, though you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcised state of your flesh, God made you alive together with Him. He kindly forgave us our trespasses, and blotted out the handwritten document against us, which consisted of decrees and which was in opposition to us; and He has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake.

  Hebrews 12:2 as we look intently at the Chief Agent and Perfecter of our faith, Jesus. For the joy that was set before Him he endured despising shame, and has sat down at the right hand of God.

  I think that His distress was knowing that for that short time, He was considered lawless by God's own Law.
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  rem

  I just finished reading an extremely interesting book about the historicity of Jesus called The Jesus Mysteries by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy. This book is very convincing and is well researched. The last quarter of the book is references and footnotes!

  Any lingering doubt I might have had that Jesus was a historical person was shattered by the overwhelming evidence in this book that the Jesus story is a myth taken from the pagan Mystery religions. The parallels between Jesus and the pagan Osiris-Dyonisis god-men are unbelievable! Read this book if you want to educate yourself on what modern scholars already know about the evidence (or lack thereof) for a historical Jesus.

  The thing I really liked about this book is that it explains how a literal, historical Jesus was created from an original mythical character. It convincingly shows how the Gnostic Christians were most probably the original Christians with their outer, literal Jesus story, and their inner spiritual understandings of the myth. There is very compelling evidence that shows that Paul was one of the original Gnostic Christians (even the Gnostics claimed him as one of their founders) and later literalists toned down Paul's Gnostic message, fighting for a literal, historical Jesus.

  Anyway, I know this is a bit off topic, but when it really comes down to it, there was no suffering on the cross by Jesus because he did not exist! It was a common myth that was bastardized into a literal understanding and was given a historical context. Even if the Jesus story was true, I agree that in the grand scheme of things it would not be too difficult to suffer through temporary pain if you were guaranteed a resurrection to one of the highest positions in the Universe and become immortal. Religious fanatics have suffered just as much, if not more throughout history for their faiths without such guarantees.

  rem

  p.s. Here is a link to the book on Amazon:
  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/060960581X/qid=1000784570/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_7_1/107-6542738-8759752

  "Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so."
  ..........Bertrand Russell
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  siegswife

  Thanks for sharing your thoughts about this, but I have no doubt that Jesus does exist, as He is a very real part of my life. I understand that many people don't believe that He is real though. It's interesting that you should mention such a book though, because my youngest son just told me the other day that he recently read a book that came to the opposite conclusion. I don't know the name of it, but apparently a man was out to prove that Jesus didn't exist and was convinced that he did by the overwhelming evidence that HE found. Isn't if funny how people can come to opposite conclusions and both contend that they are absolutely right?
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  Nomen Clature

  I think that His distress was knowing that for that short time, He was considered lawless by God's own Law.

  But of course, he wasn't considered so by anyone of any import. Nope, that argument just does not hold water. Besides, the stories don't specify any such thing. Why do you?

  Btw, why would god "acurse" someone who is or was executed by his people? And why "acurse" a dead person? I'm refering back to De 21:23. btw, that scripture is just after the scriptures advocating parents to join in stoning their own children. I wonder what Jesus thought of that part of the law? Was that part righteous? Nah, I'm thinking Jesus did what he had to do to get as many people as possible away from that "law". Even if that meant pretending to have a bit of respect for it.
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  siegswife

  If that's what you want to believe, have at it. I'm inclined to believe the Bible and that Jesus did feel distress and grief over what happened to Him. You are forgetting that while the Law was in effect, He was considered to be lawless by God. God doesn't lie, and He said that any man hung on a stake was accursed. The Law wasn't made ineffective until Christ was resurrected. He truly loved the Law of God, because He truly loved God. But it's of no consequence to me if you don't believe it.