The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness 1380 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • thirdwitness
    thirdwitness

    Let me clarify a little for you. In chapter 1 of Revelation John mentions that he was transferred into the 'Lord's day.' This would be 1914 and onward. So I believe that yes the letter to the 7 congregations are for the congregations in the Lord's day since 1914. But as I said in my answer previously Jesus was king of kings even while on earth. So even if you don't want to believe the letters are for the congregations since 1914, that is ok. Jesus being exalted to heaven at his ressurection is still of course the rightful king and by being at the right hand of God he could certainly be called ruler of the king's of the earth. Even when on earth he could be called king of kings because he was the chosen king to rule over the earth.

    But then I later expounded on my answer when I wrote this:

    Notice Revelation 12 which was to occur in the Lord's day after Jesus statement at Matt 28:18. Notice verse 15 And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.” Chirst was to receive authority in a special way in the future. But is this really so? After Satan is cast out of heaven Revelation 12:10 tells us: And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! So even though Jesus was given authority after his ressurection he did not exercise all his authority until the proper time appointed by his Father. He waited until he received his kingship over God's Messianic Kingdom. And even still he has not exercise all his authority because he has not destroyed all the other kingdoms. (Daniel 2:44) Daniel 7 also shows us that it is during the last wild beast of the earth, the time of the small horn that grows big(Rev 17:10 tells us there would be seven. "And there are seven kings: five have fallen, one is (Rome), the other has not yet arrived (Anglo-american)) that Jesus gains access to the throne of God. Well just notice:

    13 “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.

    For further proof of this lets look at an illustration that Jesus gave: Luke 19:

    11 While they were listening to these things he spoke in addition an illustration, because he was near Jerusalem and they were imagining that the kingdom of God was going to display itself instantly. 12 Therefore he said: “A certain man of noble birth traveled to a distant land to secure kingly power for himself and to return. 13 Calling ten slaves of his he gave them ten mi´nas and told them, ‘Do business till I come.’ 14 But his citizens hated him and sent out a body of ambassadors after him, to say, ‘We do not want this [man] to become king over us.’

    15 Eventually when he got back after having secured the kingly power, he commanded to be called to him these slaves to whom he had given the silver money, in order to ascertain what they had gained by business activity.

    Well of course you know the story. He rewarded those who had obeyed his commands. But as for the enemies of his look what happened.

    27 Moreover, these enemies of mine that did not want me to become king over them BRING here and slaughter them before me.’”

    This proves: Jesus would not secure kingly power until sometime after his accension to heaven. So either the Bible contradicts itself or Jesus was to receive kingship in a special way and authority in a special way after a long period of time in the final part of the days. By being appointed to this special kingship as ruler of God's kingdom that was to destroy all other kingdoms no longer would his authority have an affect only on his congregation but it would affect all of mankind. Jesus even though having all authority waited until this special appointment before he exercised that authority to its greatest extent. And still he has not exercised all of his authority. He will do that at Armageddon. I realize that some like AlanF will take the option that the Bible contradicts itself and its prophecy have failed but for those who still believe the Bible is inspired of God, we can see that the Bible all harmonizes and that the explanation is both scriptural and reasonable.

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    thirdwitness,

    Jesus was to receive kingship in a special way and authority in a special way after a long period of time in the final part of the days.

    You are adding to the Scriptures you quoted. According to ONLY the Scriptures you quoted, you have demonstrated that: Jesus was to receive kingship in a special way and authority in a special way after a long period of time in the final part of the days.

    You did not demonstrate when the final part of the days were, that he would only be given rulership in the final part of the days, or that the authority would be given "after a long period of time".

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul
    thirdwitness: So either the Bible contradicts itself...

    ...or what Jesus said and what Daniel wrote does not actually support the full extent of your assertions, and since your assertions match the assertions of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, the Bible does not support their assertions either.

    I know which I am betting on. Per your explanation Jesus becomes king multiple times. I reject that asinine assertion. You are suggesting that Jesus was "The Ruler over the kings of the earth" before God placed them as a stool for his feet. That is ludicrous.

    Acts 2:34-36
    "Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: 'Sit at my right hand, until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet."' Therefore let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom YOU impaled."

    Peter made very clear that on Penetcost 33 CE Jesus gave clear evidence that his enemies had been placed beneath his feet.

    AuldSoul

  • thirdwitness
    thirdwitness

    Auldsoul:You did not demonstrate when the final part of the days were, that he would only be given rulership in the final part of the days, or that the authority would be given "after a long period of time".

    You need to go back and read it again. Look at Daniel 7 and Revelation 12. Also notice that after Jesus 'eventually' secures kingly power he returns he destroys the disobedient. This shows that his kingly power was secured long after his return to heaven. This shows that the kingly power would not be secured until the time of his parousia.

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Fisherman,

    Personaly, if I believe a question to be asked honestly, I am inclined to answer it. If I feel my answer is sufficient but the one who asked it does not, I may try again. But I will not entirely surrender control of the discussion to others. When I'm confident I made my point, whether or not it has been accepted, I will move on.

    What you have described is a conversation, not a debate. What takes place in these threads is a debate, not a conversation.

    HS

  • plmkrzy
    plmkrzy

    What is the meaning of parousia in Matthew 24:3

    Alanf: While the root meaning of parousia is "presence" (literally, "a being alongside"), it can also mean "coming," "arrival," "advent," "appearing," (see footnote 1 for this paragraph) and is often used that way in Greek literature. Parousia often has the flavor of both "presence" and "arrival". It is not just the moment of arrival, but a presence extending from the arrival onward.

    Footnote 1 for above paragraph:

    A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich & Danker, Second Edition (BAGD), Univ. of Chicago Press, 1979, p. 629; Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Baker Book House, 1977, p. 490; The Analytical Greek Lexicon Revised, ed. by Harold K. Moulton, Zondervan, 1978, p. 307; A Greek-English Lexicon, Liddell and Scott, Oxford, 1976, p. 1343; The New Englishman’s Greek Concordance and Lexicon, Wigram-Green, Hendrickson Publishers, 1982, p. 680; Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament, Vol. 3, Balz & Schneider, Eerdman’s, 1993, p. 43; Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Kittel and Friedrich, Vol. V, Eerdmans, 1967, p. 859.

    Is there by chance a website where these books can be referenced without having to purchase all of them? I’ve been following these debates, while attempting to collect info for myself, and the best reference I have been able to find on line is:

    Strong's Greek Lexicon Search Results


    Result of search for "Parousia":

    3952. parousia par-oo-see'-ah from the present participle of 3918; a being near, i.e. advent (often, return; specially, of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physically, aspect:--coming, presence.

    Strong's Greek Lexicon Search Results


    Result of search for "presence":

    561. apenanti ap-en'-an-tee from 575 and 1725; from in front, i.e. opposite, before or against:--before, contrary, over against, in the presence of.

    1715. emprosthen em'-pros-then from 1722 and 4314; in front of (in place (literally or figuratively) or time):--against, at, before, (in presence, sight) of.

    1725. enanti en'-an-tee from 1722 and 473; in front (i.e. figuratively, presence) of:--before.

    1726. enantion en-an-tee'-on neuter of 1727; (adverbially) in the presence (view) of:--before, in the presence of.

    1799. enopion en-o'-pee-on neuter of a compound of 1722 and a derivative of 3700; in the face of (literally or figuratively):--before, in the presence (sight) of, to.

    2714. katenopion kat-en-o'-pee-on from 2596 and 1799; directly in front of:--before (the presence of), in the sight of.

    3952. parousia par-oo-see'-ah from the present participle of 3918; a being near, i.e. advent (often, return; specially, of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physically, aspect:--coming, presence.

    4383. prosopon pros'-o-pon from 4314 and ops (the visage, from 3700); the front (as being towards view), i.e. the countenance, aspect, appearance, surface; by implication, presence, person:--(outward) appearance, X before, countenance, face, fashion, (men's) person, presence.

    Result of search for "erchomai":

    2064. erchomai er'-khom-ahee middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred (middle voice) eleuthomai el-yoo'-thom-ahee, or (active) eltho el'-tho, which do not otherwise occur) to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively):--accompany, appear, bring, come, enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set.

    Erchomenos

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    "many jws" choose to believe that RF is .....and say many bad things about him without having all of the facts. Many xbtls having known Rf personally and having worked with also say the say thing

    AD you are guesing.

    There are people I dislike. Some people really get on my nerves.Some people that work for me dont like me (imagine that!) because Im the boos and they have to do what I say because I am running things.

    There are those that disliked bk a minority. There are those that liked bk a majority. Then there is the objective description of the man.

    I didnt like my boss, I have to confess, I heard and said some angry things about him. Today I have all of the facts and when I look back, I have a different view.

    Again, I have good things to say about nhk.

  • jayhawk1
    jayhawk1

    Plmkrzy, you might want to make the quotes a little bigger on the Greek Lexicons. It is near impossible for me to see them.

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Fisherman,

    "many jws" choose to believe that RF is .....and say many bad things about him without having all of the facts. Many xbtls having known Rf personally and having worked with also say the say thing AD you are guesing. There are people I dislike. Some people really get on my nerves.Some people that work for me dont like me (imagine that!) because Im the boos and they have to do what I say because I am running things. There are those that disliked bk a minority. There are those that liked bk a majority. Then there is the objective description of the man. I didnt like my boss, I have to confess, I heard and said some angry things about him. Today I have all of the facts and when I look back, I have a different view. Again, I have good things to say about nhk.
    Can you inform us as to what language this is, then I can start the translating. I speak five languages, English, Italian, French, Spanish, and Latin - hopefully it is one of these.

    HS

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    Fisherman,

    Again, I have good things to say about nhk.

    Please say them.

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