by thirdwitness 1380 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
General question: Why does Jesus keep leaving after his arrivals in JW theology? They don't, of course, specify when he leaves, but he apparently keeps showing up invisibly then "disappearing" for another century or a millenium or two. (pun intended)
AuldSoul
Flash,
Thank you for your post, and though I diversify from the topic at hand slightly, I feel that it is important for you to understand exactly what a 'debate' entails, as you do not seem to have quite grasped the process yet, as TD notes.
A primary issue, called 'prima facie' is first laid down. In this case ThirdWitness did this by his affirmative, 'The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible'. It is then up to ThirdWitness to prove his notion against his opposers, and for those debating against him to challenge his notions. Points or questions cannot be ignored. In a functioning debate, ignoring issues pertaining to the affirmative challenge loses points. Each point is dealt with in turn, proposed, challenged etc in logical progression. Debates should lead somewhere, and should teach. A good debater requires critical thinking skills, honesty and an ability to grasp the oppositions viewpoint.
Now, we cannot blame ThirdWitness totally for failing miserably at the debates he chooses to start on this Board. His deliberate policy of not answering questions that challenge, and in many ways undo his 'prima facie', and his ability to cheat logic by leaping over unproven bridges of illogic have been noticed by all his opposers.
The reality is that Jehovah's Witnesses have never been taught how to debate, but only to preach. If you recall we were actively dissuaded from even atempting to debate theology with those we met from door to door, which speaks for itself. Carl Jonsson admits that his 'downfall' as a JW was the moment he picked up a householders challenge to prove the 607BCE Brooklyn chronology - and we all know where that led. That is why ALL ThirdWitness attempts at debate invariably end up with him firing on all cylinders in preaching mode, and this is why he often struggles with being able to grasp the implications of another debaters point and leaves so many questions unanswered. It is easier to preach than to think.
Look back at all his answers when he is logically boxed in, and you will note, as does 'Scholar' another JW apologist on this Board, they invariably give way to preaching. So ThirdWitness cannot debate, but he can preach.
I cannot speak for you, but I have had enough preaching to last me 144,000 years. A little honesty is what I expect now.
HS
3rd W, you wrote:
You want it on a silver platter as I said earlier but thats not the way it happens. You have to dig and search the Bible.
You want it on a silver platter. I understand that you don't want to dig deeply into the Bible and connect the dots that are there to be connected.
Ozzie wants a silver platter. You'll never get one. If you ever studied with JWs I think you can connect the dots.
I believe that I have answered every question posed to me on this subject. Some do not like my answers because they do not coincide with what you want to believe. No answer would be good enough for ones who have but one agenda: to try to discredit Jws.
Take for example AlanF as repects the NWT translating parousia as presence. The problem with AlanF's insistance that parousia in Matt 24 can only correctly be translated as coming or advent and certainly not presence is that it is based solely on the fact that he has this great obsession to prove JWs wrong. So he decides based on this theology that presence is the wrong translation and coming is the correct translation even though most if not all scholars acknowledge that the literal meaning of parousia is presence. Some say that parousia is a coming yes, but also a presence. AlanF wants to translate parousia as coming so that he can hide the fact that there are two different words used in the text, parousia and erchomai. This way he can obscure the true meaning from ones who don't know that there are two different words used. And mislead any unsuspecting unstudied JWs or interested ones. Bible translations that use the word coming are basing this on the traditional view of 'Christians' that Christ has a 2nd Coming. They are interpreting parousia according to their beliefs. But as shown by many scholars, coming does not accurately depict the meaning of parousia to the fullest extent. The NWT on the other hand translates parousia literally as presence. This way the reader can determine the meaning for himself based on the context of what Jesus is saying. The NWT is not trying to deceive or confuse the reader. The reader can use his own judgment as the whether parousia is just a coming or a presence which of course involves an intial coming. There is nothing wrong with this. Other translation have done the same. But AlanF denounces the NWT for doing this. Why? Because he doesn't care what the Bible is truely saying. He doesn't even believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. He has only one agenda: to try to discredit JWs and mislead all that he can away from the truth.
thirdwitness,
thirdwitness: I believe that I have answered every question posed to me on this subject.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/118775/2095811/post.ashx#2095811
As usual, your beliefs are not founded in fact. You wrote at length about Revelation 12 when asked a question about Revelation 1. Writing about Revelation 12 does not answer a question about Revelation 1. If you believe it does, please state that for the record so saki2fifty and other lurkers can see.
The question about John's identification of Jesus to the 1st Century congregations is directly relevant to your assertions regarding the Gentile Times and the meaning of the parousia. Therefore, it is in keeping with BOTH topics for debate you have raised in this thread. Please answer the questions regarding Revelation Chapter 1.
AuldSoul
TD
That reminds me of the "Argument Sketch" from Monty Python:
Funny!
Since "argument" is one of the defining terms of debate, perhaps the problem lies in how it is defined. Ignoring valid points your opponent has made is not "argument," at least insofar as that term is applicable to debate.
I guess it depends on how fine a point we put on defining what a debate is. Personaly, if I believe a question to be asked honestly, I am inclined to answer it. If I feel my answer is sufficient but the one who asked it does not, I may try again. But I will not entirely surrender control of the discussion to others. When I'm confident I made my point, whether or not it has been accepted, I will move on.
ackack
How do you get around the whole October 1914 thing vs. World War 1 starting in July? Or do you think this is much of a problem?thirdwitness's reply was that Satan knowing he was going to be cast out, came down to earth before hand to cause trouble. He didn't provide any biblical or ever watchtower support for that statement, so its probably just his or her own private speculation.
No, I don't think its a problem at all. Satan and his army had full access to heaven and earth. When Christ was installed as King He exiled Satan and his forces to the area of the earth. The bible says Satan had "great anger" so its no surprise to me that he would start preparing to cause "Woe to the earth..." even before his exile.
Private speculation? Yes, I would say so...mine too.
BTW, empirical evidence? What evidence did you have in mind?ackack
This is part of what I posted earlier on this thread:
The empirical evidence about 1914 with WW1 and all the new weaponry that was used in it is proof enough for me that the 607 / 1914 formula is correct. An undenyably major change took place on earth at that time. Prior to the 20th century weapons for thousands of years were very primitive. I consider the very rapid change in that area proof that Satan was cast down then. I believe he is no fool and saw his expulsion coming and prepared for it. So right after he was kicked out of heaven he was all set to wreck havok on the earth.
and later this:
Funny coincidence...from the 15th century to the 1860's muzzle loaders were the norm. For thousands of years before that it was, bow and arrows, swords and slings, axes...all very 'High Tech.' Yet from 1861 to 1914 humanity...all by itself, jumps from those primitive weapons to Machine Guns, Tanks, Warplanes, Poison Gas and everything else since. Yes gentlemen ~ EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE.
21 years after WW1, WW2 starts ending in 1945 with 2 A-Bombs. Quite a leap for humanity, all starting coincidentaly around when Satans exile and Christ's enthronement took place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I
Hiroshima before:
and after
http://history.acusd.edu/gen/ww2Timeline/Pacific08.html
Revelation 13: 11 ~ 13
11"And I saw another wild beast ascending out of the earth, and it had two horns like a lamb, but it began speaking as a dragon. 12 And it exersises all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight. And it makes the earth and those who dwell in it worship the first wild beast, whose death-stroke got healed. 13 And it performs great signs, so that it should even make fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind."
Its clear to me that we are living very much in the Last Days, regardless of the WTS errors. God's will is near its completion toward removing Satan, his army and humanity that refuses to live under His law.
Flash,
Your 'empirical' evidence only proves that the world is changing, not that the Bible is correct.
You might just as easily hypothesize that the rapid escalation in the ability to fight modern warfare on a huge scale is due to aliens introducing technology into the human race. The 'empirical' evidence that you present would suit this hypothesis also. Real empirical evidence, not just a gut feeling, must be provable. How do you prove that you are right? Faith and empirical evidence do not make happy bed companions.
Even if the world collapsed in a heap tomorrow it would still not support your hypothesis.
HS
I think the end can't come yet. Because Jesus said it would come at "an hour that you do not think to be it." And every "true-believer" among Jehovah's Witnesses thinks any second could be it.
THEY are making it drag out! [exasperated grunt]
AuldSoul
Thirdwitness:
I believe that I have answered every question posed to me on this subject
Liar, liar, pants on fire. You sir, are a TROLL !
Flash: Your world is situated around your bellybutton-area. You should try to read some things about history (other than what`s in Awake magazine) to try and grow a perspective on things. Until you do that (and I see you like Wikipedia), try this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death
...you see, Armageddon was allready here... ...it was called the Black Death, or the Black Plague! It happened in the years between 1347-1351. It wiped out between 1/3 and 2/3 (probably 1/2) of the European population. Half of all the people in Europe died in great agony. At the same time, the plague also broke out in China, the middle east and India. In total, 75 million (75 000 000) people died. In just four years! This is the greatest catastrophy humankind has ever endured, topping even the death toll world war 2, not to mention world war 1, which was peanuts in comparison, when counting actual deaths. When counting deaths compared to the overall population, the catastrophy of the Black Plague can be considered a catastrophy counting ten times as many casualties as even world war 2 (when comparing the number of deaths in relation to the population of the world at that time). 1914 and the following century was peanuts compared to the 13th and 14th century. You should try to read some real scinetific litterature, instead of the quasi-science of Awake, a magazine that had me believe, at the age of 13, that we only use 10% of our brains, and I proudly raised my hand in science class in school and said this, and the teacher started laughing, and the whole class started laughing too. It wanted to sink into a hole in the ground. Today, I am the one laughing, and I laugh at the WTS. I have a uni-degree and learned som things about the world, and about history. You should try that too. It`s amazing what you might find out.
21 years after WW1, WW2 starts ending in 1945 with 2 A-Bombs. Quite a leap for humanity, all starting coincidentaly around when Satans exile and Christ's enthronement took place.
Flash, don't make me repeat an earlier post to this topic. Apparently you are not aware of the industiral revolution which started with one man Eli Whitney and his concept of standardized parts and standardized measurement. By creating industrial standards it allows concepts to go from a sketch to reality. Did Satan cause this? I think not.
