Why Do I Remain one of Jehovah's Witnesses?

by Nicodemus 13 Replies latest jw friends

  • Nicodemus
    Nicodemus

    NOTE: I originally started this as a reply to a query on the thread “A Different JW Viewpoint.” AlanF had asked me why I stay a JW in view of what I posted there. As I developed the reply, it started to become clear to me that it was such a deviation from my original post that it deserved a separate thread.

    AlanF and Andi
    Alan asks a very good question, and a very complicated one. I didn’t particularly want to digress onto a different topic on this thread, hence my failure to reply to Alan. But maybe I can discuss it briefly.

    Lots of factors contribute to who each of us is. For example, most citizens of the USA are such because they are born such. However, as they grow to be adults, I suspect that most are proud of their citizenship because, overall, they see good in what the USA represents. Does that mean they support, or even condone, everything about that country, its leaders, or all of its fellow citizens? Do they support all aspects of American domestic and foreign policy? What do they think about America’s involvement in the Vietnam war? Do they support, or condone, Gary Condit’s recent behavior? Bill Clinton’s affair with Monica Lewinsky, and subsequent behavior? The views or activities of NAMBLA?

    I suspect most would answer “no.” But how many renounce their US citizenship?

    Those who have “known” me for a while on the internet know some of my views about certain aspects of the beliefs and practices of JWs:

    1. I am concerned about the propagation of certain aspects of our doctrine that I feel have become as much JW dogma as what we criticize as the dogma of other religious groups.

    2. I believe we put forth propaganda in the sense that we spend a lot of time congratulating ourselves, organizationally speaking, to our own members. I’m an elder. I’ve seen enough to know that our organization is not always the “spiritual paradise” we continually tell ourselves that it is.

    3. I am concerned about the pedophile issue, although I personally have not been exposed to some of the horror stories that seem to be popping up on the web.

    4. It certainly seems to me that our blood policy gets more and more inconsistent as time passes.

    5. The whole emphasis on “works.” I believe that faith should manifest itself in works. But Paul makes a classic argument against the type of works that we seem to expect, when he says at Romans 4:4: “Now to the man that works the pay is counted, not as an undeserved kindness, but as a debt.” A further question is: Why do we only count time for one kind of work, when there are others listed in the Bible? Why are JWs “graded” on only one thing?

    But I have seen other facets of this organization as well. The stand that individual Witnesses were willing to take in the face of the Nazi assault. Those that served, and serve, prison terms in this and other countries because they will not go to war and kill another human. Those that have sacrificed their own wants, desires, comforts and preferences to become missionaries in foreign lands. I know many such individuals personally and I have nothing but admiration and respect for them. Whether or not one believes in the specific message they preach, I don’t think you can find much fault in their personal actions.

    As I said, it’s complicated. This topic could be debated almost endlessly, and in many cases there are no easy, or clear, answers. But perhaps that may share a little of my perspective.

    Finally, Alan, one of the characteristics of a true friend is that he or she “defends the absent.” In other words, if you are my friend, and somebody in my opinion unfairly maligns you in your absence, if I am a true friend I should speak up and defend you. On the thread referencing WOL, a blanket statement was made referring to Jehovah’s Witnesses as “perverts.” Is that OK? Should I have just let that pass?

    Nicodemus

  • Pathofthorns
    Pathofthorns

    Thanks for your comments Nicodemus. I have always enjoyed them and found them reasonable and balanced from your perspective.

    I wondered the same as Alan had asked and the response is appreciated. Thank you.

    Path

  • Bridgette
    Bridgette

    Nicodemus (he was one of my favorite bible characters--not ready to give up the Jewish faith, but open minded enough to at least listen to what Jesus had to say with respect....hmmmmmm)
    So, I hope you saw my post on the previous thread. I'll recap at the risk of being redundant. I am glad you post here. I am glad you're a voice of reason out of the sea of madness most of us exited from. This is a great place to cultivate understanding of one another. I think it's beautiful.
    When I hear from people like you, I see hope. Wish I'd known more like you (I knew a few--2 that I can think of off hand, well, and then there was myself...) when I was "in" (NOT that I would've stayed).
    Once again, I am glad you're here, Nicodemus.
    Peace,
    Bridgette

  • metatron
    metatron

    It's wonderful to hear your reasoned Christian viewpoint again.

    As to the ingrained attitudes of Witnesses and their frequently
    hidden glee in any tragedy, I can only respond as Jesus would have:

    "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do"

    Witnesses react according to what they've taught - and that has
    been almost sociopathic, at times. Alan is correct in noticing
    flip flops on mercy and attempts to hide the cold starkness
    of Watchtower teaching. However, cruel hearted men like 'the Boss'
    will not live forever, neither will they retain command for
    decades to come. The fact that the Watchtower hides its teaching
    behind crafted deceptions tells you that the average person
    in the world would quickly reject the cruelty in their belief,
    if it was explicit!

    The greatest force that will sweep away the uglier aspects
    of the Watchtower is -- the appreciation of compassion and
    love among so many in the world. It will be harder and harder
    to condemn people who risk their lives for their fellowmen,
    who donate their blood, and who care for the injured.

    I'm reminded of Hebrews where it talks about "that which
    is obsolete is growing old and passing away". The organization
    is falling behind real moral progress in the world, in many
    different ways and will have to change accordingly.

    metatron

  • Tina
    Tina

    And I wonder ,for all these
    reformers' if the kingdom message will still be paradise thru genocide..........

    Carl Sagan on balancing openness to new ideas with skeptical scrutiny..."if you are open to the point of gullibility and have not an ounce of skeptical sense-you cannot distinguish useful ideas from worthless ones."

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Thanks for replying, Nicodemus. I understand what you're saying, but to me it's not a very clear answer. What I had in mind is more along the lines of what I just posted on the other thread in answer to Marvin Shilmer.

    As for a blanket statement referring to JWs as perverts, I mostly disagree with such. As I've said recently and many times before, I certainly don't consider most JWs perverts. I do consider a large fraction to be unthinking, and a large fraction to be hypocrites, and a small fraction to be true perverts. Before you take exception to these statements, please consider two things:

    My remarks to Marvin Shilmer in the other thread.

    The images from JW literature posted by Norm, Talleyman and others in threads such as this:
    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=11681&site=3
    Just picture the image that has smiling JWs in the foreground and burning buildings in the background in relation to the WTC disaster. What do you think about a person who fervently hopes that a disaster like at the WTC will occur, and smiles while it's happening? How about someone who fervently hopes that a disaster a million times worse will occur, and imagines himself smiling while it's happening? Are they perverts? Why or why not? What about an organization that teaches people to entertain such a hope? Are its leaders perverts?

    AlanF

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Nicodemus,

    Thank you for your well expressed thoughts.

    I would like to contribute to what is a very important issue here but would also like to read the message left by Alan to Marvin Shilmer.

    Can somebody kindly/unkindly ( whatever suits ) link that for me as I cannot seem to find it.

    With thanks - HS

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Hi HS,

    The thread you're looking for is here; the part you want is on page 2:
    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=11656&site=3

    AlanF

  • JT
    JT

    Nic

    thanks for the post and i think most of us fully understand what you are dealing with- all of us are at different levels as we examine what we have been taught - many from infancy-

    and i have enjoyed both private and public discussion with you-

    but Nic this is the bottom line_ when ever you decide to examine the core belief of jw is when you will cease to be a jw-

    the core belief of jw is that the GB/FDS speak for God- once realize that they don't-- then you will realize that you as an "WT Elder" are working for a corp just like Sears, GM, IBM, Boeing and ect.

    you will realize that you are one of the local managers of store #29740 and the product that you sell and teach others to sell is HOPE

    yes hope in a promise that god never made

    and only after you realize that will you find out just how Pissed you will be when you realize all the Sat mornings you wasted and weeknights you wasted and time itself that you have wasted selling and getting others to sell Worthless Hopes and Dreams

    i want you to save this post and keep it in your file so in a year or 2 when you realize that you have been Hoodwinked and Bamboozled , esp with the most precious thing you have "TIME"

    YOU ARE GOING TO BE TICKED

    JAMES

  • bluesapphire
    bluesapphire

    Nicodemus, while I respect your right to choose your religion, I do wonder: Do you *really* believe JW's are the only ones who would die for thier beliefs? Think about it. Those terrorists who have caused so much pain and suffering in the US did it FOR THEIR BELIEFS. Does that make it right? Or what about all the other Christian missionaries from all the other denominations who are making far greater sacrifices than any JW missionary? Most JW missionaries concentrate in countries where the people are already Christian. So they just have to get people to believe in the WTS interpretations of the Bible which they already believe to be true. In essence, they are first letting the Baptists, Catholics, Evangelicals do the grunt work and then they go and "steal" converts from those who already are Christians. (I said *most* not all)

    Do you really believe it is okay to sit back and let people be killed and say, "I will not go to war!" We would all be Nazis if all the men who sacrificed their lives had said that. And what about all the wars in the Old Testament? I believe it shows a lack of gratitude for the sacrifice made by so many brave men and women by criticizing their actions while enjoying the fruits of their actions to the full. Or would you be happier if you were *not* in a country which actually not only allowed you to believe as you wish, but DEFENDS with the blood of its own your right to believe what you believe?

    It's easier and in my opinion cowardly to sit back and say, "I will not go to war." The hard thing is to defend the innocent and defend what you believe in. Do you believe in freedom? Then why would you not be willing to fight for that freedom? Those men who are put in prison for refusing to fight in wars have it great when compared to those who are on the front lines defending their beliefs and shedding their own blood for their beliefs. I don't admire the JW stand. I view them as cowards. And I view the GB as cowards too and hypocrites. I'm sure..they have the nerve to demand religious freedoms all over the world. (i.e., France) then with the other side of their mouth they criticize the very ones who lost their lives for those very same freedoms.

    These have, of course, been my opinions. My intention is not to offend you and I hope I haven't.

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