Luke 21:8, my discussion with an elder. (page 5)

greendawn

They are so sure that they are the true religion and appointed by god and their global preaching may appear to be impressive yet "from their fruits you will know them" and the WTS is not producing the right kind of fruits to verify their grand claims of Divine appointment. No charitable spirit, destroyed many families, caught lying repeatedly, unable to produce stable dogma, have a power lusting leadership that marginalises all of the other (so called) anointed elite who should also have a share in the running of this org.

Zico

Thanks Greendawn, I'm not sure if your response was to me or just a general one, but I do know that the Society is not appointed by God. And I would know this, even if I hadn't heard of this scripture. I was just asking about the Apostles? If they believed the end would come in their time, does that mean they were going against Jesus words? And if they were going against Jesus words, does that mean that they weren't appointed by God either?

Zico

Bttt - Any opinions? Thanks.

OnTheWayOut

Good job Drew

I considered a very similar discussion with my elders, which I considered very easy to follow.
They should at least acknowledge that a person who felt he needed to review this information
would want to refrain from Field service. But as your experience shows, they are not prepared
to discuss the thought that their core scriptures actually mean something totally different.

Your experience shows me what a waste of time any discussion on those points would be with
the elders. I will stick to discussions with the wife, mother, and no others in the borg.

Zico

Surely someone has a thought they can share? I'd like to know if there's a good way to respond to my JW associate...

Quandry

Zico

Yes, I have always thought of the apostles and followers of Jesus as "being on the watch." However, that does not mean they went around telling others that without a doubt the end would be in certain years, the way the WTS has done in the past. We know that one such date was 1914. Then for certain, 1925, even to the point that houses were bought for the "ancient worthies" and their names were put on the deed to the homes. Men like King David and Abraham. You can look back at the web sites that quote WT publications showing these things are true. To me there is a vast difference in looking to the rule of Jesus and giving out false predictions.

OnTheWayOut

Similar thoughts. I am not an Apostle defender, but they never said which year the end would come in. Personally, I don't think they were ever discussing the end of the Gentile times or the destruction at Armageddon (as JW teach it).

Frank75

Zico - If they believed the end would come in their time, does that mean they were going against Jesus words? And if they were going against Jesus words, does that mean that they weren't appointed by God either?

Simply believing that the end would come in their life time is not wrong, but actually encouraged by Jesus in his parables that highlighted staying awake and vigilant. The last point you make is not a fair comparison though. The apostles were hand picked by Jesus, or so the Gospels would have us believe. Likewise their selection was backed up by powerful works and signs. They were still imperfect and prone to making mistakes, however such mistakes were generally made as individuals and not as a power wielding oppressive and authoritative body as the WT would have us think. The Apostles served not as a ruling class among the early church, but merely as ones specifically charged with helping to establish the Christian church. They were just "brothers" serving as a touchstone and not rulers in the sense of the word "leaders".

The apostles never had to "claim" that they were appointed, as that appointment was undeniable, undisputed and backed up by their ongoing use of powerful works. The WT leaders on the other hand wish us to believe that they are directed by spirit although not inspired, and go so far as to claim that they are "appointed" by God exclusively out of all other religious groups. This claim is impossible to back up as there exist none of the characteristics that existed with the apostles. Lastly they have, not through some misunderstanding of something they heard Jesus directly say, pridefully cried "the end is nigh" for over a 100 years.

OnTheWayOut - Similar thoughts. I am not an Apostle defender, but they never said which year the end would come in.

The following scripture gives a little food for thought on that point. Although not the same league as WT screw ups, it is easy to see the danger of speaking out of turn.

(John 21:20-23) 20 Upon turning about Peter saw the disciple whom Jesus used to love following, the one who at the evening meal had also leaned back upon his breast and said: "Lord, who is the one betraying you?" 21 Accordingly, when he caught sight of him, Peter said to Jesus: "Lord, what will this [man do]?"22 Jesus said to him: "If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you? You continue following me." 23In consequence, this saying went out among the brothers, that that disciple would not die. However, Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but: "If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you?"

I am sure that it can be argued that this did not mean that Peter thought John would live forever, on earth (although I am sure NWT translators probably like it to appear that way) but rather, that the end, or Christ return would take place before John actually died.

When I was a witness I used to ponder this text as some small comfort in view of the troubling predictions made by the society, such as the generation.

I would say to people upset over the generation, "If Peter was going around saying this, how do you think people would have reacted? Would they not assume that Christ would come within a certain period of time, say the next 20-40 years." Then, "how would that expectation have changed as John continued to grow older and older, to the point of being a centenarian?" Then, "how would those people feel after John wrote his gospel and cleared the whole thing up?"

However the above reasoning was faulty for the same reason I showed at the top of the post. There is just no comparison. Peter is no where credited here with writing extensively on his views about the end and John because of what Jesus said to him. It appears to be a very minor misunderstanding that spread by rumor, not threat of disfellowshipping to the Christian community. In the end it was not Peter who came up with this epiphany it was John. (not a 2/3 majority vote behind closed doors) His revelation cleared up the misunderstanding. He did not then dig into the remaining gospels seeking for an alternate time line for the end to come. The lesson was learned and served/serves as a warning example to all humble enough to accept it.

The WT legacy on the other hand carries no redeeming features what so ever. Not only have they taken upon themselves the mantle of the only true prophet of modern times, but they claim to be God's very spokesmen. Additionally they judge as wicked any who would point out even the smallest of errors in their publications, challenge their claims or even ask for proof. They claim to exclusively be the anointed of God. This is actually a claim to be Christ as the term "Anointed" is what the term Messiah and Christ mean. They have elevated themselves above all anointed Christians to the status of "The Anointed Slave Class". Further they have carved out a class of followers (other sheep) who are taught that they are dependant upon them for salvation, redemption and mediation. Finally they have been ringing the bell of Luke 21:8 as the most outspoken "I am he" of the past century with repeated, threatening and authoritative claims that "the Due Time has Approached." The latest being their District Assembly which announced "Deliverance is Near".

Frank75

JWdaughter

You made a good argument for reading the actual bible for what it says. Thank you for sticking up for what the book is SAYING. It went well, you are out, your family is free and you gave a good witness even if you don't feel like it yet. Good for you!

congratulations-I really liked you in Don Juan DeMarco, btw;)

oompa

Drew there was a lot of good points in this thread......oompa

Luke 21:8, my discussion with an elder.

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