I no longer call you slaves,
because a slave does not know what his master is doing.
I have called you friends,
because I have told you everything I have heard from my Father.
It was not you who chose me, but I who chose you
and appointed you to go and bear fruit that will remain,
so that whatever you ask the Father in my name he may give you.
Some scripture you will hear on 21 May at very many churches
by A Paduan 53 Replies latest watchtower bible
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A Paduan
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Will Power
Would a JW accuse you of making that up?
wp -
Sad emo
because a slave does not know what his master is doing.
So that's why the FDS keeps getting things wrong then?! -
scout575
A Paduan: There's no denying that you've quoted a very nice passage - John 15:15,16. If we look at the context, however, we find that thats not quite as nice. In verse 14, Jesus says: "Ye are my friends IF ye do WHATSOEVER I COMMAND YOU." Jesus' 'friendship' is dependant on absolute obedience to him. What happens to those of his "friends" who stop being absolutely obedient to him? Does he just withdraw his 'friendship'? No, In verse 6 he says: "If a man ABIDE NOT in me, he is CAST FORTH as a branch, and is WITHERED; and men gather them, and cast them INTO THE FIRE, and they are BURNED." Jesus' message is: Do as I command or else....
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greendawn
One wonders what kind of fruit the FDS has produced that is in accordance with the Christian commands. Not to blame them exclusively, but certainly destroying families by their shunning policies and acting deceitfully and dictatorially is not the right fruitage.
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A Paduan
A Paduan: There's no denying that you've quoted ;a very nice passage - John 15:15,16. If we look at the context, however, we find that thats not quite as nice. In verse 14, Jesus says: "Ye are my friends IF ye do WHATSOEVER I COMMAND YOU." Jesus' 'friendship' is dependant on absolute obedience to him. What happens to those of his "friends" who stop being absolutely obedient to him? Does he just withdraw his 'friendship'? No, In verse 6 he says: "If a man ABIDE NOT in me, he is CAST FORTH as a branch, and is WITHERED; and men gather them, and cast them INTO THE FIRE and they are BURNED." Jesus' message is: Do as I command or else....
That's an extrapolation from you - and jw style: be careful how you hear, for to him who has more will be given
- those who do as he asks are said to be his friends
- it does not say that those who do not do whatever he asks are not his friend
Your extrapolation substitutes the concept 'total obedience' for 'abide' - that substitution basically says "there is no forgiveness" and hence " Jesus' message (to you) is: Do as I command or else...."
And note that the text does not read abide "with", but "in" - those that are not "in" have burning desire - and also note, and note well, that "men gather them"
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I no longer call you slaves,
because a slave does not know what his master is doing.
I have called you friends,
because I have told you everything I have heard from my Father.That's simply part of the catholic church gospel reading of Sunday 21/5/6 - worldwide
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A Paduan
because a slave does not know what his master is doing.
So that's why the FDS keeps getting things wrong then?!For real
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scout575
A Paduan: Who are the "men" that "gather" those who "abide not" in Jesus, and who "cast them into the fire" where they are "burned"? ( John 15:6 ) Do these "men" do this against Jesus' will?
What ( according to the story ) happened to Jesus' friends Ananais and Sapphira when they didn't obey Jesus absolutely ? ( Acts 5:1-11 ) Was it "men" who executed them, or was it their 'friend' Jesus?
What does Jesus say he will do to people whom he doesn't regard as his friends?: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels....and these shall go into EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT." ( Matthew 25:41,46 ) Is it "men" who mete out this "everlasting punishment" to those aren't favoured with Jesus' 'friendship', or is it 'friendly' Jesus?
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A Paduan
A Paduan: Who are the "men" that "gather" those who "abide not" in Jesus, and who "cast them into the fire" where they are "burned"? ( John 15:6 )
Would you say that jws don't fit that picture ?
What ( according to the story ) happened to Jesus' friends Ananais and Sapphira when they didn't obey Jesus absolutely ? ( Acts 5:1-11 ) Was it "men" who executed them, or was it their 'friend' Jesus?
They lied to the Holy Spirit, were exposed, embarrassed, and died - I'm not sure how - could have been cardiac arrest I suppose - maybe they simply died spiritually. Why do you say it was because they "didn't obey Jesus absolutely" ?
What does Jesus say he will do to people whom he doesn't regard as his friends?
That's a re-occurring theme you seem to have goig on the subject.
Is it "men" who mete out this "everlasting punishment"
Yes - they themselves -
scout575
A Paduan: You say:1- "They ( Ananias and Sapphira ) lied to the Holy Spirit." Then you ask: "Why do you say that they didn't obey Jesus absolutely?" Isn't 'lying to the Holy Spirit' a case of not obeying Jesus absolutely? Can a Christian be regarded as obeying Jesus absolutely if he 'lies to the Holy Spirit'?
2 -"They ( Ananias and Sapphira )...died...could have been cardiac arrest." Double, fatal heart attack? Really? At Acts 5:9,10 Peter says to Sapphira: "Behold the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and SHALL carry thee out. THEN fell she down straightway at his feet....dead." According to this, Peter KNEW IN ADVANCE that she would die. If she died of cardiac arrest, how would Peter have known IN ADVANCE that that would happen to her? The implication of this story is that Peter was somehow informed by heaven that heaven was about to execute her.
3 - "Maybe they died SPIRITUALLY." It couldn't have been that because verse 10 says that she was: "BURIED" alondside her husband. Are SPIRITUALLY dead people buried?
4 - "They themselves ( men )" mete out the "everlasting punishment" foretold at Matthew 25:41,46. Really? Who is foretold as having this role at 2 Thessalonains 1:7-9?: "...The LORD JESUS shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire, taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power." Clearly, Jesus is portrayed as the great heavenly executioner. This passage predicts that he will inflict, "everlasting destruction" on "them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus." That doesn't sound too 'friendly' to me.