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FireNBanditsAre You A Pharisee? No? Are You SURE? :-)


Are You A Pharisee? No? Are You SURE? J

Have you ever wondered what the modern equivalent of a Pharisee wearing a phylactery is? (For those who don’t know, a phylactery was a little box that ancient Jews would secure to their forehead with a strap, and inside the box was the Shema or other important scriptures. It was a public demonstration of piety) Jesus spoke out against the Pharisees because they would “broaden their phylacteries” in order to outdo their fellow Jews in their outward religiosity and public piety. When I became a Christian I spotted the modern-day equivalent of the phylactery with the ease of gliding on wet ice: The Bible-toters Bible. I’d see them all over the place, especially on Sunday. The Pharisees would be toting some ten pound Bible around, and I knew damn well it was a Bible because the words on the cover said HOLY BIBLE in print so large it could be seen from space! They were broadcasting to the world, “I’M A CHRISTIAN! I HAVE JESUS IN MY HIP POCKET! I’M SO SPIRITUAL!”

Other modern day phylacteries are clerical collars, priestly garb, and nuns habits. Even the modern American business suit has become The Religious Garb of the Sunday-go-to-meeting crowd. One is looked down upon in many snooty churches unless one is wearing The Proper Religious Garb. T-shirts with religious slogans and pictures are in this category too. Anything external that says “Hey! Lookie what a great Christian--or Buddhist or whatever--I am!”

I would sometimes try to point this out to friends who were engaging in this Pharisaic behavior and was usually rewarded with blank bovine stares or anger.

I was only able to get a handful of people to start thinking of Pharisees in modern day terms, to ask themselves “What would a modern day Pharisee do if he were a Christian?” and then to search their own lives, behaviors, and attitudes and eliminate the Pharisaic elements. Modern day Pharisees behave in a variety of ways, but they remain at core religious people NOT spiritual people.

Many of my born again friends once saw so clearly what it meant to be a Pharisee, and guarded against it in themselves. I’ve watched as they’ve learned to talk out of both sides of their mouths over the years, just like a Pharisee. Bible worship and faith in the Bible has taken the place of God in their hearts. The Bible has become their Idol, their substitute for God. Once upon a time these former spiritually alive people made the living God, as they understood God, the center of their lives. The Bible was only important if it helped them experience God. If not, the scripture was ignored. Now the Bible is the Golden Calf and they dance the Dance of JuJu around it, making Bible study and end in itself. As though merely learning the Bible is going to make them spiritually alive and mature. Yet Jesus said to the Pharisees, in the Gospel of John, “Ye search the scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life. Yet it is they which testify of Me.” They don’t see it. Why? Because they’ve become blind Pharisees.

Dead doctrines have taken the place of a life in the Spirit. Instead of focusing on the transforming inner Spirit, they ride doctrinal hobby horses, or moral issue hobby horses. Many make an idol out of Eternal Security--presumably so they can live like hell and still be assured of Heaven. Or perhaps speaking in tongues, or whether or not one says *uck. Sh** like that, you know?  Things that have absolutely no ultimate meaning or significance whatsoever they project onto God! As if God shares their petty inane superficial concerns! Others have replaced the Spirit with the abortion issue. It’s their center. Or gay bashing. Gay bashing and abortion are big with the Phari-fundiots I know that used to be free and easy spiritual folks, who once were alive in the Spirit.

Heck, it’s even rather Pharisaic of me to write an article exposing modern day Pharisees, but I can’t communicate it simply by quoting the bible or putting on a shadow play.

Rather than get their hands dirty riding around giving out sandwiches and sodas to the homeless, these folks prefer to simply give money to their church or charity and shut off their brains, “having faith” that the money will go to help the needy. Problem is, only a few cents out of every dollar actually go to helping the poor. Most money given to a church for charitable purposes actually goes to pay off the mortgage, the utility bills, the upkeep, the pastor, plus money has to be sent to headquarters if it’s a denominational church. If it’s a nondenominational church, then there is absolutely no headship over the pastor, he is answerable and accountable to no one, and you can bet your sweet aunt Petunias booty that a LOT of the money gets laundered in some clever ways and winds up in the pastors pocket. I know this for a fact because I have seen it from the inside.

The same for charities. Be careful. Most people working for “charities” live much higher on the hog than you do! The make a very comfortable living being parasites. If you don’t see these people as parasites, you’re not seeing clearly. You aren’t able to rise above your culture and simply look at it without preconceptions such as “Oh but they’re doing a noble work!” Are they? People who volunteer their time for a legitimate charity are doing a noble work, not parasites who make a grand living from money donated for the needy!

Becoming arrogant, hateful, spiteful spewers of venom such as Pat “Where’d I leave my humanity ?” Robertson and Jerry “Kill the fags!” Falwell is also the behavior of the Pharisee. One who has been touched by Divinity knows Love and Grace, they’re filled with the Fruits of the Holy Spirit. Try finding a fundy that can even enumerate the Fruits of the Holy Spirit! You will look long and hard to find one that can. The Fruits of the Holy Spirit are “Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control.” I don't see self righteousness or anger or hate or rage or killing gays or bombing abortion clinics or judging people in this list. I’ve pointed these out to angry fundiots who swing their Bibles around bashing people with them and condemning them to hell, and they retort with “I’m forgiven not perfect! None of that gay-sounding crap matters!” I am, sadly, serious. This has occurred more than once or twice.

I worked with a fellow named Linwood Tuttle for several years. We all called him Linwill Tattle because he reported everything he heard and saw back to our supervisor. We had to be extremely careful around this hateful--but smiling!--Bible-toting evildoer. He quoted scripture almost incessantly, “praised the Lord!” all over the place, but then would report on any of us--for such offenses as smoking in the lounge, leaving the job site for lunch--so that our supervisor would pat him on the head and say “Good boy!” One day I was working with him and he was literally swearing like a pirate. Every other words was “*uck” and “**it.” Then I cussed when I cut myself trying to get a stubborn screw out of a desk, and he lit into me about how swearing was a sin! Another coworker and I looked at each other dumbstruck. I finally said, “Lin, you swear like a pirate.” He went ballistic and started talking in a threatening manner, so I got in his face and invited him to do something honest for a change and punch me in the face instead of stab me in the back. He became enraged and screamed “Who the *UCK do you think you ARE?” I answered, “I’m Mister Seventy Times Seven Lin.”

He began cursing up a storm, spittle flying from his mouth, and he left the room, and called our supervisor Tony Maloney (not his real name). I got into trouble for inviting Lin to punch me in the face instead of stabbing me in the back! This fellow is really not unusual. I also worked with a short, very obese, black older fellow who was a Seventh Day Adventist. His name was Ed Sentel, and we called him Ed See and Tell and Ed Sentinel. He was the same as Linwill Tattle, but he also liked judging how much God loved a person by how much money they made and what kind of car they drove.

Over the decades, experience has taught me that born-againers are the most likely to steal, to spy, to back-stab, to try and undermine others at work, to lie through their teeth to get ahead, and to coast along on the efforts of others. When people start “praising the Lord” around me, I get my back up against the wall for protection.

Their response? “I’m forgiven! Not perfect!”

Cheap grace and easy believism, hypocrisy, judging others harshly while being easy on oneself, these are all marks of the Pharisee. Of the religiously alive but spiritually dead. Majoring in minors is also a trait of the Pharisee. Focusing on what denomination one attends, how long one’s hair is, or one’s whiskers or the length of a skirt, or whether or not one smokes. All these are the concerns of the Pharisee. They don’t care about the homeless, the downtrodden, or the suffering and neglected, except in some abstract amorphous way. They think you’re great if you go off to war and kill others in pointless wars such as Iraq, but get bent out of shape if Janet Jackson flashes a breast on TV during the Superbowl!

In other words, a Pharisee is not sane. They focus on externals, major in minors, use smoke and mirrors to make themselves look good, judge others harshly, and are quite sure of their own salvation and of your damnation. They’re immoral or amoral and can’t even see it! They will rationalize their behavior till the moon turns to butter, and haughtily justify themselves any way they can.

I used to have a close born-again friend named Annie McCoy who would often ask me, “Yeah, but is he/she a REAL Christian?” when I spoke of devout Catholics or Eastern Orthodox. Finally, I snapped back, “How the hell should I know? I can’t read and judge their hearts! That’s up to GOD!” That shut her up for awhile but also drove a wedge in our friendship. She was the kind of person who considered herself a real Heavy Hitter For Jesus when in actuality she was just a very religiously odd woman with a great singing voice.

This same woman, when she was in her mid thirties, began concerning herself intently with the doings of others instead of focusing the Light on herself. “Well!” she would exclaim, “I would love to Quote The Sctipture to them and set them straight!” She would say it over and over at various verbal cues, very much like a program had been installed in her brain. I now know that program is called a meme. At one time she threw herself at me and said she wanted to have an affair with me, and I declined her advances and told her, “I love you like a sister Annie, not sexually or romantically.” That was the last straw and she has held me at arms length ever since.

I bring this up because every social study I’ve read of fundies indicate this schizophrenia is normal. Swinging back and forth like a pendulum, into the flesh and then into the religion. Back and forth, back and forth. It was people such as this that added to my finally dumping mainstream Christianity.

We’ve all seen the Fundy Family at restaurants. The folks who make a big public display of their prayers. They hold hands, bow their heads, and in a voice loud enough for all to hear they preach a sermonette disguised as a prayer, making sure everyone knows how much they love Jesus. Sometimes the prayer is whispered, but the bowed heads and hand holding is very obvious. These people aren’t simply praying, they’re letting you know that you need to be more religious like them. Funny, because Jesus rebuked the Pharisees on this very issue.:

“And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thouprayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee.” (Matthew 6:5-7)

Fundamentalists read the same Bible as everyone else, yet when it comes to Pharisaic behavior it makes no impression on their minds at all. They’re incapable of seeing any connection to their own behavior. I recall one season of Survivor in which a fundamentalist African American contestant made a point of forcing everyone to pray with her publicly before they ate or did anything else. I’m sure she was wrapped in a warm religious glow, patting herself on the back for the wonderful “stand she had taken for Christ.” She came across as pushy, manipulative, self-righteous, not very bright, and creepy. I think she was quickly voted off the island, which of course was the correct response. Jesus himself would have voted her off!

Wouldn’t it be great if she were actually reading this and it got through her armor plated skull? Dream on.




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ninjaRe: Are You A Pharisee? No? Are You SURE? :-)
get out of my synagogue....he he
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watsonRe: Re: Are You A Pharisee? No? Are You SURE? :-)

"effin' bee,"

Well written, and I think insightful.  Wow!

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loosieRe: Are You A Pharisee? No? Are You SURE? :-)
broaden their phylacteries
hehe those words make me giggle
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NarkissosRe: Are You A Pharisee? No? Are You SURE? :-)

(as ever )

It's funny when you think of the Gospels' "Pharisees" as a Christian caricature of (post 70 A.D) Judaism. It must not have taken long to backfire against Christianity. Or perhaps even from the start it contained a measure of self-derision, who knows?

Anyway, identifying "God" to the secret -- whatever is said or done "to the choir" or to any approving audience being lost to him -- was one of the best Matthean intuitions imo. But nobody can build a religion on such a foundation I guess.

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PahpaRe: Are You A Pharisee? No? Are You SURE? :-)

In Jesus' time there were two schools among the Pharisees.  The school of Hillel was progressive and less strict.  In fact, some scholars have compared the teachings of Hillel with those of Jesus and found many similarities. And some scholars feel that those Pharisees that became believers may of been of this school.  (Nicodemus?)

The other school was that of Shammai.  It was noted for its restrictive rules and demanding regulations. Many from this school may have been the opposers of Christ. 

 

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AlphaOmegaRe: Are You A Pharisee? No? Are You SURE? :-)

Great post !

You are correct, this can be seen in any denomination.

As though merely learning the Bible is going to make them spiritually alive and mature.

This reminds me of the difference between John 17:3 in certain Bibles (including BBE, NWT and probably others) and most other Bibles.

And this is eternal life: to have knowledge of you, the only true God, and of him whom you have sent, even Jesus Christ.
[John 17:3 BBE]

This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.
[John 17:3 NWT]

 

And this is life eternal, that they might know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
[John 17:3 MKJV]

Huge difference!

Yes, I've just quoted from not just one, not two, but THREE bibles, but knowing the Bible and letting it steer you to a deeper relationship with God and knowing it word for word WITHOUT knowing the Spirit beneath it are two different things.

The Pharisees were guilty of obeying the LETTER of the Law but ignoring the SPIRIT of the Law. (I wish I knew where the Bible says that - pointers please)

 

“praised the Lord!” all over the place, but then would report on any of us--for such offenses as smoking in the lounge, leaving the job site for lunch

Is it not also written that unless we forgive others, we will not be forgiven.

There is much Karma in the Lord's Prayer !

In other words, a Pharisee is not sane. They focus on externals

You Pharisees and teachers are show-offs, and you're in for trouble! You wash the outside of your cups and dishes, while inside there is nothing but greed and selfishness. You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of a cup, and then the outside will also be clean.
[Matthew 23:25-26 CEV]

I would love to Quote The Sctipture to them and set them straight!

Yep, we know the sort. The ones that take scripture out of context just to win an argument.

The ones that you could imagine quoting this verse out of context...

Blessed is the one who grabs your little children and smashes them against a rock.
[Psalms 137:9 GW]

Sadly, they think that just because they can make a passage of the Bible fit a conversation, that they have the full backing of God ! We have the law written on our hearts, to carry with us and apply everyday without making a show of it. But people do love to score points, don't they?

 

 

 

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FireNBanditsRe: Re: Are You A Pharisee? No? Are You SURE? :-)
"Anyway, identifying "God" to the secret -- whatever is said or done "to the choir" or to any approving audience being lost to him -- was one of the best Matthean intuitions imo. But nobody can build a religion on such a foundation I guess." 

Hi Narkissos. Thanks for the comments. I am, every now and then, thick as the proverbial brick, and this is one such time. I admit I'm unsure what this comment means. I've always found great significance in Matthews caricature of the Pharisees as it shines a lot of light on the difference between religion and spirituality. I think you're saying that too, but there's more that I'm not getting. As I said, sometimes I'm a wee bit thick. So, please feel free to "unthicken" me here.          -Martin
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FireNBanditsRe: Re: Are You A Pharisee? No? Are You SURE? :-)
Hey AlphaOmega!

"You Pharisees and teachers are show-offs, and you're in for trouble! You wash the outside of your cups and dishes, while inside there is nothing but greed and selfishness. You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of a cup, and then the outside will also be clean." Matthew 23:25-26 CEV.  Wow, that's quite a powerful translation! I like it! It's difficult to miss the point with such forceful clear wording. Thanks.   

"Thank you!" to each of you who took the time to read my rather verbose post, and to respond. You're much appreciated. -Martin

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NarkissosRe: Are You A Pharisee? No? Are You SURE? :-)
"Beware of practicing your piety before others in order to be seen by them; for then you have no reward from your Father in heaven. 
"So whenever you give alms, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be praised by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward. But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your alms may be done in secret (en tô kruptô); and your Father who seesin secret (en tô kruptô) will reward you. 
"And whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, so that they may be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who isin secret (en tô kruptô); and your Father who seesin secret (en tô kruptô) will reward you. 
"When you are praying, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. 
"Pray then in this way: 
Our Father in heaven, 
hallowed be your name. 
Your kingdom come. 
Your will be done, 
on earth as it is in heaven. 
Give us this day our daily bread. 
And forgive us our debts, 
as we also have forgiven our debtors. 
And do not bring us to the time of trial, 
but rescue us from the evil one. 
For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; but if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.  
"And whenever you fast, do not look dismal, like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces so as to show others that they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward. But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, so that your fasting may be seen not by others but by your Father who isin secret (en tô kruphaiô); and your Father who sees in secret (en tô kruphaiô) will reward you.

Your Father in heaven = your Father in secret.

Indeed, the caricature is so effective that it exceeds anti-Judaism (the "Pharisees" proper); any Christian community with common (=> public) piety can feel the irony, and the Matthean one(s) (which obviously practiced alms, prayer and fasting as a common rule, cf. Didachè) was(were) certainly no exception.

What I also like in this theology of the "secret" is a certain taste for shade which resists the totali(tarian)ism of "light". In a very erotic way religion tends to apokalupsis, revelation, unveiling, which is also its end. The veil is meant to be torn down and the secret laid bare as empty; but the play will be put on again, here or elsewhere. And it really starts wherever something can be "hidden," were it in plain sight.

A darkness shining in brightness which brightness could not comprehend. (Joyce, Ulysses)

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Deputy DogRe: Are You A Pharisee? No? Are You SURE? :-)

Martin

After that tirade, please forgive me for asking,but, How does your righteousness exceed that of the Pharisees?

I see you saying you are glad you're not a sinner (Pharisee) like: Pat “Where’d I leave my humanity ?” Robertson and Jerry “Kill the fags!” Falwell, Linwood Tuttle, Tony Maloney, Ed Sentel, Annie McCoy.

Luk 18:11
The Pharisee stood up and prayed, 'God, I thank you that I'm not like other people! I'm not a robber or a dishonest person. I haven't committed adultery. I'm not even like this tax collector.

I know I'm poor in spirit how about you?

Mat 5:3
"Blessed are those who recognize they are spiritually helpless. The kingdom of heaven belongs to them.

Luk 18:13 "But the tax collector was standing at a distance. He wouldn't even look up to heaven. Instead, he became very upset, and he said, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!'

So I ask you again. How does your righteousness exceed that of the Pharisees?

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

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ANewLeifRe: Are You A Pharisee? No? Are You SURE? :-)

However, it is not Pharisaical to state whether a religion's dogma is Christian dogma. For instance, while a Zen Buddhist might also be a Christian, Zen Buddhist philosophy is not Christian. On the other hand, a good Muslim is not a Christian, the dogma precludes it.

In another thread Martin wrote, "AnEwLeif! Wow! I'm impressed! A brand new Pharisee has blossomed! I think if you try even harder you can find even more ways to shut the door to the Kingdom on many more people! What's your secret? Do you have Jesus in your hip pocket? Are you Omniscient? You must be. I think that's great. When I get my Pharisee Badge from Battle Creek Michigan I hope I can be even HALF as righteous and holy as you are. Judge Rutherford would be proud of you. Hell, I'M proud of you and I'm just an advanced piece of software being tested by the DOD."

I think Pharisee hunters like our friend Martin, here, often assume that every person who says someone is not a Christian also attaches a doctrine that non-Christians are destined for destruction and cannot have God's favor or any number of other dismal outcomes for the non-Christian. Such an assumption about the beliefs of others may not be Pharisaical, but it is certainly prejudiced. Hats off to you, Martin! You have proven that one need not be a Pharisee to be a judgemental pr**k.

ANL

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golf2Re: Are You A Pharisee? No? Are You SURE? :-)


Pharisee's are self-righteous persons !!!!!

Golf
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Deputy DogRe: Re: Are You A Pharisee? No? Are You SURE? :-)

ANL

In another thread Martin wrote, "AnEwLeif! Wow! I'm impressed! A brand new Pharisee has blossomed! I think if you try even harder you can find even more ways to shut the door to the Kingdom on many more people! What's your secret? Do you have Jesus in your hip pocket? Are you Omniscient? You must be. I think that's great. When I get my Pharisee Badge from Battle Creek Michigan I hope I can be even HALF as righteous and holy as you are. Judge Rutherford would be proud of you. Hell, I'M proud of you and I'm just an advanced piece of software being tested by the DOD."

I saw that, and that is one reason I'm responding to his thread.  I would love to see how he thinks his righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees. 

I wonder who he's trying to impress.

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ANewLeifRe: Are You A Pharisee? No? Are You SURE? :-)

Himself, d dog. Nobody writes that much about a subject they know so little of unless they love to read what they just wrote. He wants the freedom to judgmentally determine who can be judgmental and who cannot. He apparently has himself squarely in the "Can Be Judgmental" column.

ANL

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NarkissosRe: Are You A Pharisee? No? Are You SURE? :-)

ANL,

For instance, while a Zen Buddhist might also be a Christian, Zen Buddhist philosophy is not Christian. On the other hand, a good Muslim is not a Christian, the dogma precludes it.

I know it's a side point to your post but the last sentence made me wonder... why?

Islam and post-Nicene Christianity are mutually exclusive, but unless you have Christianity started at Nicaea where is the commonly accepted Christian "dogma" which would rule Islam (and not earlier Jewish Christians, Christian Gnostics, or Arians) out of Christianity? I know Christianity and Islam are traditionally regarded as separate religions but I doubt it is on a dogmatic basis.

DD,

Exceeding Pharisaic righteousness by proxy, in the Pauline way, would hardly match Matthew's expectation either, imo.

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ANewLeifRe: Are You A Pharisee? No? Are You SURE? :-)

Narkissos,

Islam teaches that Jesus was a great prophet, but just a man. It teaches that he was not the son of God; that he was not the Messiah. That is dogma and it directly contradicts the foundational dogma of Christianity.

I don't know how a religion that surfaced almost 200 years after the Nicene Creed could be weighed against any other version of Christianity, but I am willing to learn.

ANL

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Deputy DogRe: Re: Are You A Pharisee? No? Are You SURE? :-)

Nark

DD, Exceeding Pharisaic righteousness by proxy, in the Pauline way, would hardly match Matthew's expectation either, imo.

I believe Jesus and Paul give the same solution.  The answer is in my first reply.  I'll bet he misses it the same way you did.

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NarkissosRe: Are You A Pharisee? No? Are You SURE? :-)

ANL,

Unless you take the formal use or rejection of the phrase "Son of God," regardless of its meaning, as the shibboleth separating "Christians" from "non-Christians," that doesn't work too well imo. Some Jewish Christians in the early 2nd century would actually regard Jesus as little more than a prophet even though they may have called him "Son of God". They would not accept he was born from a virgin (whereas Islam does). While Jesus is not the last prophet in Islam he retains some superiority (for instance, he, not Muhammad, comes back at the end of times for judgement).

I think we lack an objective dogmatic basis (other than mere historical usage) to draw the border of Christianity as a whole. If you accept the Ebionites or Nazarenes as Christian, it becomes very difficult to explain dogmatically why Muslims are not.

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ANewLeifRe: Are You A Pharisee? No? Are You SURE? :-)

Thank you, Narkissos, for that clarification of your point.

I do not think the Nazarenes ever considered themselves Christians. They seem to have regarded themselves as Jews who believed that Jesus was the Messiah, not as Christians who believed they had to retain Jewish traditions and uphold the Law of Moses. At least, that seems to be a reasonable summation of the viewpoint of Epiphanius.

As I understand things, since there is no clearly identifiable creed for the Ebionites it is difficult to categorize the Ebionites as having any particular set of beliefs to which they all adhered. Not that I believe this would be necessary for Christians, in any case, but I think while discussing a religion that claims to be the one and only path to salvation and claims that the Authorized Version's canon is the source of their claim, it is odd to inject a group that did not hold that view as a counterpoint. In the case of Islam, they hold the The Noble Qur'an to be the central authoritative text and the same argument applies. Islamists teach that any who do not adopt Islam, as the path to salvation, are destined for destruction.

It seems that in the case of both the Ebionites and the Nazarenes there was more belief held in common with Pharisees than with Christ. Many "Christian" religions today have the same problem, including Jehovah's Witnesses. Christ did not start a religion. Christ started a spiritual movement from which religions sprang.

I tend to single out Jehovah's Witnesses on this forum because ... that is what I thought this forum is for.

ANL

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