Other Sheep question

by wizzstick 21 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  wizzstick

  Coming off from my thread on the Great Crowd, (once again thanks TD, AnnOMaly and all the others for their help), a question on the Other Sheep in the 33CE - 1935 CE for the great JWN mind hive.

  The QFR in the W86 8/1 P31‏ ends up with confirming about the Other Sheep pre-33CE:

  Someone might reason: Jesus was pointing to a future gathering of “other sheep,” hence the term applies only to those who, after Jesus spoke, would accept the Biblical hope of everlasting life on earth. However, it seems unnecessary to confine the term thusly, as if Jesus were defining matters chronologically or se quentially. We believe that he was stressing that he was the shepherd of the unified sheep. Some sheeplike persons come into a fold to go to heaven. There are also other sheep who will accept him as shepherd; these will be at unity with those first mentioned. Having this view, the term “other sheep” includes men of faith who died before Jesus inaugurated the way to heaven, such as Noah, Abraham, Job, David, and John the Baptizer. (Matthew 11:11; Acts 2:29; Hebrews 10:19, 20) When these are resurrected in the new system of things, they can accept the Fine Shepherd and have the prospect of end less earthly life with the rest of Jesus’ “other sheep.”

  But I can't find any clarification regarding non-annointed in the 33CE - 1935CE period being Other Sheep.

  In the other thread TD said:

  In JW theology, there was only one hope from Pentecost clear up until the supposed proximity of the end made the identification of the Great Crowd possible.

  "For 19 centuries there was only the one calling, the heavenly one, with Jehovah being very selective as to who would serve with his Son to make up the Kingdom government. (The Watchtower, February 15, 1982 p. 30)

  It is not possible for "Other Sheep" to exist as a class apart from the "Great Crowd" in the Christian era. (Again in JW theology) John only saw two groups, not three.

  So does anyone know whether there are any articles suggesting what happens if you are are non-annointed in the 33CE - 1935CE period. I've been researching this for hours on the WT CD-Rom and I can't believe they haven't talked somewhere about if you were non-annointed between in those years.

  Or are we left to assume they are Other Sheep by virtue of the 'fact' pre-Christian witnesses are.

  Otherwise there's a wacky gap in WT literature/theology! And JW's, like me, just make an (albeit) logical guess that they are OS without the actually WT ever saying so.

  (Not wishing to sound like I doubt you TD but I've been mulling this over the weekend and it seems insane that there is such a hole in WT theology!)
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  Fernando

  Excellent point wizzstick!

  According to Watchtower theology there were no Other Sheep for an entire consecutive 2,000 years from Jesus' death.

  Yet a basis for this teaching cannot be found in the Bible, nor seemingly even in their literature!
• 

  Bobcat

  Wizzstick:

  Another factor you may want to throw into your research is the subject of being 'anointed.'

  Here (see my post # 475) is some discussion about that subject.

  Here (see my post # 878) and here (see my posts # 620 & 623) is further research on indications that the great crowd are also anointed.

  See here for further references/links to this subject (my posts 631 & 633)

  Also here (my post # 385)

  Take Care
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  Sapphy

  I'm not sure I understand the question wizzstick!

  "...any articles suggesting what happens if you are are non-annointed in the 33CE - 1935CE period?"

  I would guess there's no articles adressing that directly because (In JW theology):

  a) If you were a true Christian between 33-1935 you were annointed,

  b) A ressurection of the righteous and unrighteous, so you could have been the kindest person on the planet, or an evil murderer, and as long as you died before Armageddon, you get the same reward - ressurection with the opportunity to join the other sheep. So basically it doesn't matter.

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/43756/1/Is-this-a-big-hole-in-the-great-crowd-quo

  Of course this doesn't cover the people like those killed in the flood, men of sodom, Cain, Judas etc who are always popping in and out of gehenna.
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  slimboyfat

  I knew a sister who as baptised in 1925 who was non-anointed. She died a few years ago. She said she just never "felt it".

  There was a Watchtower article a few years ago, the one that dropped 1935, that also said whether a peson was anointed or not does not depend on when they were baptised. That would seem to imply there could be non-anointed in the period 33 CE to 1935. Not something they want to discuss extensively I suppose because it all sounds like nonsense the more you think about it.
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  AnnOMaly

  There IS a gap. I cannot remember coming across any indication the 'other sheep' existed from 33 CE to the 20th century.

  Again, from the United in Worship book:

  chap. 13 pp. 103-104 par. 2 A Great Crowd Before Jehovah’s Throne

  For centuries the identity of this “great crowd” was not understood. But the progressive understanding of related prophecies prepared the way. In 1923 it was discerned that the “sheep” of Jesus’ parable at Matthew 25:31-46 and the “other sheep” to which he referred at John 10:16 were persons now living who would have opportunity to dwell forever here on earth. In 1931 the ones described in Ezekiel 9:1-11 as being marked in their foreheads by the man with the secretary’s inkhorn were identified with the “sheep” of Matthew chapter 25. Then, in 1935, the “great multitude,” or “great crowd,” of Revelation 7:9-17 was seen to be the same as the “sheep” of Jesus’ parable of the sheep and goats. Although back in 1923 it was realized that some such sheeplike individuals had already begun to manifest themselves, it was not until 1935 that their numbers began to grow rapidly. Today there are literally millions who are seeking to be identified as part of that divinely favored “great crowd” of the “other sheep.”

  So the 'other sheep' only appear as a class in the early 20th century.

  The October 15, 1923 Watch Tower has an article on p.307f., titled 'The Parable of the Sheep and the Goats' and, as well as discussing Matt. 25, it ties in John 10:16. The 'other sheep' were identified with the 'sheep' of Matt. 25 and, on p. 310, indicates that these were part of nominal Christianity, think the nominal church does some good, who themselves try to do right, respect the Lord's people, but are not consecrated to the Lord nor aspire to the heavenly calling. Basically the same views were repeated in the Vindication books in 1931/32.
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  Sapphy

  AnnOMaly - do you mean there is a gap in the collection of other sheep? yes absolutely.

  4026bce - 33ce = Approved people are other sheep, everyone else gets a ressurection too.

  33ce - 1935ce = Approved people are annointed, everyone else gets a ressurection to earth.

  1935 - Great trib = Mixed call, annointed and other sheep. Everyone else gets a ressurection as long as they die before they're killed at big A
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  bats in the belfry

  From Zion's Watch Tower, March 15, 1905:

  
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  wizzstick

  Thanks Fernando, Bobcat, Sapphy, slimboyfat, AnnOMaly and bats is the belfry.

  I just astounded by this.

  I mean the answer is obvious, isn't it? One of the writing committee could knock out an explanation like this in 5 minutes:

  "However those who were not of the annointed in later Roman times, like around 300CE when Diocletion butchered more Christians that there are those of the annointed, were of the Other Sheep. Example of what Diocletian's persecution below:

  "Diocletian assumed the crown A.D. 284. At first he seemed friendly to the Christians, but in the year 303 he gave in to persuasion and opened the tenth persecution, probably the most ferocious of all. Suffocation by smoke, forcible drinking of melted lead, mass drownings and burnings, breaking on the rack of men and women alike ran the empire with blood. In a single month 17,000 were slain. In the province of Egypt alone, 144,000 such professed Christians died by violence in the course of this persecution, in addition to another 700,000 who died as a result of fatigues encountered in banishment or under enforced public works." Watchtower 1951 September 1 p.518

  So these, like pre-Christian witnesses, would receive an earthly resurrection."

  Voila. That took two minutes.

  Surely someone, somewhere has asked them this? I guess this shows that they just don't give a crap about anyone between the Apostle John's death and Russell (plus the other 19th century gang).

  Incredible. You know what, I actually might write to the London Bethel and ask what the official line on this is! I'm really curious to their reply!
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  EdenOne

  marked

  Eden