by wizzstick 79 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
One fact proves that the Great Crowd is not what WT thinker think it is:
Rev.7:9 : "-- G C, which no man was able to NUMBER--".
Wt doctrine: GC = potential / eventual Armageddon survivors = baptized JWs and their small children.
No number in WT land is more eagerly counted then BAPTISMS and their total, and
the babies. no. of children.
That is not the Great Crowd, you can count on that.
The connection between "which no man was able to number" and Abraham's "seed" was brought out here. (see my posts 620 & 623)
Those posts also tie in "washing their robes in the blood of the Lamb" with faith in Jesus, which Galatians 3 and 4 show is what identifies those who "receive the promised spirit" and who are in the new covenant. (Gal 3:14, 26 especially, but all of Gal 3 & 4 for the overview)
The part about their 'hungering and thirsting no more' is also drawn from covenant language in Isaiah 49:8-10.
The reference to the great crowd in Rev 7 fairly reeks of new covenant language, which the WT neatly sidesteps, because it isn't convenient for their power structure.
I might add, the WT describes the promise to Abraham, about his seed becoming 'like the stars in number' as an "unknown number" which was revealed later to be 144,000. But in Deut 28:62 (when Israelite men over 20 numbered some 600,000), Moses compared their number, then present, with the promise to Abraham and said if they were disobedient God would reduce them to "few."
This shows that Moses understood the promise to Abraham to refer to, not an unknown small number, but an unknown and very large number (exactly corresponding to the description of the great crowd). Moses comment there, by itself, destroys WT theology concerning the great crowd and the 144,000.
something that itches my brain.
Gentiles. When the Jews refused God's Son, and conspired with the Romans to have him killed, the Romans didn't have a problem with Jesus,
they didn't seek to kill him, it was the Jews, who should of 'known' he was the Messiah.
Anyone was entitled to 'join with and follow Jesus, regardless of race/religion.
When the Jewish system was shown for the lie it was, God destroyed it.
So, if he destroyed 'organised religion' back then, and made the way for peoples of all nations to come to him, through Jesus,
without any need for man or organisation to lead them to God (because he destroyed this model/system of control/paganistic practices/laws etc)
This de-bunks the whole jw wt case for their having 'the truth, and the only way to God and salvation, is through them.
they are doing the same as every other form of control/false religion. the very thing God did away with.
so are they in effect 'working against God'.
hope i'm making sense.
You people here still believe in the Classes invented by the Watchtower ?
You cannot let go of the WT false doctrines ?
You still speak of the "heavenly class" in hushed tones of reverance?
No, no, no
We're speaking from a JW perspective.
Even fictional stories have to make sense and have internal continuity without gaping plot holes
If you're writing a novel about vampires and in your fictional 'universe', sunlight will kill them, then obviously you can't have them walking around in broad daylight later on in the book. People will notice.
In the JW 'universe' the Great Crowd are supposed to survive the Great Tribulation. The fact that most of the adults living in 1935 when the Great Crowd was identified have passed on is a huge problem.
After giving this great crowd some thought, as I have been taught to believe for more than 2 decades since I got baptized, I asked myself: If the Lord Jesus Christ declared there is "other sheep that are not in this fold" (John 10:16), he certainly knew that during his time he had other sheep to consider. I thought, w/o researching any further, that this "other sheep" would refer to non-Jews, e.g. the Gentiles who are and would be his believers, eventually exercising faith in him. It never dawned on me that Christ was referring to a far distant future crowd in 1935 who will have different kingdom hope.
Now here comes the odd question: How come the great crowd (similar to the other sheep) was only identified as such in 1935 by J. Rutherford when Christ had already shared about it while he was still alive? Does this mean that there was no other sheep (a.k.a. earlthy class) until 1935 before the announcement during that Convention? This does'nt sound logical.
My understanding of this core teaching is getting brighter and brighter (Prov. 4:18). I cannot understand why the Society has interpreted this matter in a way that is causing confusion even with the simplest analysis.
There were understood to be several classes in Russell's day.
By the 1930s, there were three main classes.
An earthly class:
The 'other sheep' was likened to Jonadab (who was companion to anointed Jehu) and was derived from John 10 and Matt. 25.
Two heavenly classes:
The spirit-begotten, royal, Christ class who would be kings and priests and help restore mankind to perfection during the thousand years.
Another spirit-begotten class who did not have the commitment they should have done for their anointing, so they were identified as the great multitude in heaven. These missed out on the high calling and were relegated to Levitical duties instead (serving in the heavenly temple day and night).
In 1935, Rutherford brought Rev. 7, Matt. 25 and John 10 together and merged the 'other sheep' with the 'great crowd.' Since JWs back then believed the tribulation was already upon them (of sorts) and the Millennium was imminent, it fitted with the idea that a 'great crowd' of 'other sheep' would exist at that time. It also fit with the idea that the sheep were being separated from the goats, which 'new light' had revealed had been occuring since Jesus sat on his judgment throne in 1918.
Since JWs back then believed the tribulation was already upon them (of sorts) and the Millennium was imminent, it fitted with the idea that a 'great crowd' of 'other sheep' would exist at that time. It also fit with the idea that the sheep were being separated from the goats, which 'new light' had revealed had been occuring since Jesus sat on his judgment throne in 1918.
-And when the Great Tribulation was relocated to some indeterminate point in the future in 1970, the Great Crowd doctrine was salvaged via the notion of the imminence of the end. This joined it like a siamese twin to the pre-95 understanding of a 'generation' and that can't be undone simply be redefining the word.
Does this mean that there was no other sheep (a.k.a. earlthy class) until 1935 before the announcement during that Convention? This does'nt sound logical.
(Disclaimer --- All of this is said strictly within the framework of JW theology)
"Other Sheep" includes those who lived and died before Christ; what JW's sometimes call, 'Faithful men of old' and 'Pre-Christian witnesses'.
In the Christian era though, no there are no "Other Sheep" apart from the "Great Crowd" Not as a class anyway.
TD
TD. good point "Other Sheep", as defined by WT really never existed, for they were the Gentiles in real life. BUT
As you correctly said, "OTHER SHEEP" in WT parlance is a catch-all term for the lower class, non-anointed from Abel to the last resurrected in the NEW WORLD MILLENIUM.
your Disclaimer applies here too.
