by Chalam 31 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Hi JWNers,
I watched Dave Brown and Peter Price on this YouTube channel recently. It was excellent so I made a note to check out some of the other programs.
Anyhow, I have been watching this one which is also great.
It makes a clear and simple biblical case for the Trinity.
See what you think.
Blessings,
Stephen
Yawn. Chalam is our very own raving orthodox born-again bible thumping Trinitarian. He is convinced he will save JW's souls by getting them to believe in the trinity dogma.
Yawn
Thanks Chalam. For those of us who haven't decided 100% on things like this its interesting.
Are you a born again Christian? I assume ex JW?
He is convinced he will save JW's souls by getting them to believe in the trinity dogma.
Yadda,
Chalam has never to my knowledge claimed this. If you are going to mock Christians the way you were trained to do by the WT, you ought to at least accurately do so.
Hello xcellxior and welcome!
Thanks Chalam. For those of us who haven't decided 100% on things like this its interesting.
Cool, check it out, plenty of good stuff there :)
Are you a born again Christian?
Sure am!
I assume ex JW?
Never been one, just ran into a whole load over the last few years.
Blessings,
Stephen
yadda yadda 2 He is convinced he will save JW's souls by getting them to believe in the trinity dogma
Only one way to be saved
10 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11 He is
" 'the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the capstone.' 12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."
9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Blessings,
Stephen
BTT
“The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is that there is one God, who exists in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. These three persons share the one divine nature. They are equal, co-eternal and omnipotent. They are distinct from one another: The Father has no source, the Son is born of the substance of the Father, the Spirit proceeds from the Father (or from the Father and the Son). Though distinct, the three persons cannot be divided from one another in being or in operation (Oxford Dictionary of the Bible [New York, Oxford University Press, Inc., 2005] 1207) (Oxford). With minor changes, the reformed Protestant churches have essentially adapted the Catholic teachings on the Trinity Doctrine (see section 12).
Central to the doctrine that God is three Persons in one nature is the premise that “Jesus is God,” a term which causes great confusion among the Jehovah’s Witnesses who unfortunately do not understand what is meant by this Trinitarian phrase or what the Trinity doctrine teaches. One of their more bizarre errors lies in believing that Christ is a created angel who became man and after the resurrection reverted back to being an angel.
The Jehovah’s Witnesses have published countless pages of criticism of Christian Trinitarianism, teaching that it is the work of Satan and utterly illogical. This relentless attack, however, is based upon certain misconceptions and falsehoods allowing them to capitalize on many unsuspecting individuals’ ignorance of accurate Trinity dogma.Three of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ false teachings are particularly misleading and form the core vehicle for the dissemination of gross distortions.
First, they do not understand that a "Person" is not a material human being like you or I. Persons of the Trinity are spirit. Secondly, they do not understand that God is "three" in one sense, and "one" in a completey different sense. And third, the Jehovah’s Witnesses are unwilling or unable to acknowledge or grasp the concept of the hypostatic union, the union that is the God-man Jesus, who is fully God the Son and fully man, a divine Person who assumed a human nature. Intertwined with this concept is the often ignored principle that the created humanity of Jesus is not God. Accordingly, Jesus, the man in the God-man equation, could pray to His Father and acknowledge His Father’s superiority without committing any doctrinal contradictions. The Jehovah’s Witnesses, on the other hand, teach that the incarnate Jesus was nothing more or less than a man.
This treatise begins by shining a light on the worst of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ misunderstandings, and goes on to explain in greater detail what the Trinity doctrine actually teaches. From there, many of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ arguments against the doctrine of the Trinity are disposed of in light of more accurate teaching, after which a further examination is made of scriptural support for the Trinity in the Bible.
A major section is then devoted to select Bible verses that prove that Jesus was, and is, God, followed by a brief summary of early Trinitarian theology which provides us with a better understanding of the doctrine’s foundation. The concluding section is devoted to the issue of Jesus Christ being a created angel.
The Jehovah’s Witnesses, whose religion is essentially 4th century Arian Subordinationism (see section 41) have said many things about the doctrine of the Trinity that are simply not true. Out of a sense of common decency and respect, those who propound and believe in the doctrine and people who seek to understand it better are entitled at a minimum to a fair hearing on the issues, which is the primary goal of this work.
But before you begin, it is very important to understand two simple concepts which lie at the heart of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ errors; the difference between immanent Trinity and economic Trinity, and how their religion has commingled them resulting in untold confusion.
I've been doing alot of reading about what was said by 2nd and 1st century "heretics" about what Christians thought and believed.
After the death of Alexander (the Great) Greek thinking, language, ethos and religious views were soaked up by all the conquered peoples.
The winner, after all, writes the rules and controls the history.
Judaism had undergone two major blows. First, the diaspora and the 200 year indoctrinations by Persian culture and religious thought. Then, the onslaught of pagan Greek culture, language, ethos and religion.
Jews now spoke and read only Greek by a large margin. Further, the success of Jewish culture had come at a price: absorbtion of pagan Greek ideas (mixed with Persian).
The Jews and other pagans who first heard the Jesus sayings (orally) would AUTOMATICALLY fit them into a pre-existing frame or context of thought which included the Pagan DEMI-GOD.
Philo, the Jewish philosopher, gave voice to the hybridization of Greek thinking and Jewish religion. He lived from 20 B.C.E. to 50 C.E.
Philo's works were enthusiastically received by the early Christians, some of whom saw in him a cryptic Christian. His concept of the LOGOS as God's creative principle apparently influenced early Christian theology. To him Logos was God's "blueprint for the world", a governing plan.
Romans were extremely tolerant of diversity among religions. In that ethos there was NO SUCH THING as DOCTRINAL ORTHODOXY.
If you worshipped a lesser god the greater god would not be thought jealous. Families of gods, after all, filled the pantheons. Roman religion was a cut and paste of Greek Religion with only name changes and superficial differences.
The average Roman thought Jews and Christians rude and boorish in not sharing their own Roman tolerance.
There were at first more Jewish Christians than Pagan Gentiles. But, with the destruction of Jerusalem and the spread of Pauls epistles the tide began to turn. A cultural pressure to be more Greco-Roman in Christianity gave way to a full blown definition of Jesus as not only a demi-god, but, a Triumvirate.
The modern day sense of the INDIVIDUAL apart from society and culture was a NON-thought. People survived by belonging to a corporate body, tribe, ethnicity and ritual belief system. In other words, as a person your sense of BEING was corporate (a nation: Roman, for example).
So, the eventual evolution of a fixed doctrine of a Corporate Deity with submerged individual identities was not a stretch by any means. It was a natural sequence of progressive concepts over time.
*edited to add: The Doctrine of the Trinity isn't true because it is an accurate description of Deity, but, because it was an accurate description of the thinking about Deity at the time BY THOSE with the power to defend that view using statecraft, enforcement and strong arm tactics.
There is, in my view, no such thing as an accurate description of God.
