Posts by sunny23

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

sunny23

I might be misinterpreting your overall message by the way you worded a few phrases. If so I'm sorry. I have posted the analogy this page and last

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

sunny23

Sunny, I stated already that I DO NOT agree with the "end justifies the means", never have and probably never will.

but you said previously...

but the one that I tend to lean towards is that suffering is crucial to the development of humans as beings who will eventually "be like god". -Ps

So then suffering is the means, and to become "like God" is the end that justifies it? Do you no longer believe this as of 3hours ago?

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

sunny23

I've studied buddhism as well including a class tought by Robert Wright from Princeton online along with my own studies. I enjoy it a lot, specifically the scripture-free zen aspects.

I'm most concerned with how you would judge a scientist in the aboze stated analogy.

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

Buddhism strives for non-suffering. Buddhism defines suffering differently than most people would, it includes even desire for things you dont have as suffering. I don't feel that to be suffering in the sense that we are concerned about in this thread which is physical pain leading to death and thus the emotional lasting torment of survivors.

Ps..

I was only infering from YOUR implications. If i'm wrong in what I assume about your implications or if Im wrong in the analogies then please correct me! I mean no offense. I was referring to this underlined part as it seemed to fit with exactly what you said...

7. Answers that trivialise the reality of human suffering

For example..
Suffering will be unimportant compared to eternal rewards

Rational Response
This is ethically repugnant. Suffering is not reducible to arithmetic. This life really matters. Any philosophy that minimises the importance of physical human life is dangerous. It is the same mentality that leads to religious extremism and flies aeorplanes into tall buildings.

It is an extreme example of "the end justifies the means" defence, so beloved of tyrants.

Like other theodicies it is dehumanising by reducing humans to pawns in god's game.

Imagine that scientists developed a pill that would eradicate all unwelcome memories and create a feeling of bliss. How would you judge a scientist who imposed the most horrific suffering on millions of people, as unwilling subjects of his experiment, but who offered some of his victims of the magic pills when it was over?

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

sunny23

I don't know wheich positions have been rehashed here, but the one that I tend to lean towards is that suffering is crucial to the development of humans as beings who will eventually "be like god". -Ps

This statement means that Jesus wasn't "like God" until he suffered his agonizing death. This statment also means that angels in heaven are not "like God" because they have not suffered. In Genesis God said "Look, man has become like one of us." Also didn't Jesus say "If you have seen me, you have seen the father?"

I think you want to imply "discomfort" instead of "suffering." When I think of suffering I think of things that will cause lasting physical and/or mental damage to a person. Anything less than that would just be "discomfort" in my opinion. If you believe that actual suffering is crucial to all people then please do NOT have kids!

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

sunny23

Psacramento you obviously havn't read most of this thread! You are wasting peoples time and energy by bringing up things that have already been brought up several times before. I believe if it weren't for re-hashing the same topics that this thread would be 60 pages easily.

Answer this Sacrament: Do you think God is/was capable of creating a planet that will sustain life and not be hostile to humans (like earthquake causing tsunamis)? Do you think he has the power to stop a tsunami or to "put it in peoples hearts" to steer clear of danger zones so noone ever got hurt by natural disaster ever? Of course you do. Yet the argument you make saying "God doesn't see death and suffering like we do, He knows it is simply a small stage in our development and that NOT physical death is a true death, but simply a state of change of our material form, one the leads to a far greater "evolution" of man, with far greater rewards, more than we can even contemplate at this time." This DOESNT make it OK!! Consider this analogy and please read it at least 90 times over..

Like other theodicies it is dehumanising by reducing humans to pawns in god's game.

Imagine that scientists developed a pill that would eradicate all unwelcome memories and create a feeling of bliss. How would you judge a scientist who imposed the most horrific suffering on millions of people, as unwilling subjects of his experiment, but who offered some of his favorite victims the magic pills when it was over?

You said this Psacramento, "humans tend to be at their best when they show compassion and what is compassion?

To suffer with others." That sounds like something Hitler would have said concerning the millions of Jews he had murdered. Hitler taught them a sh** ton of compassion right? right?

______________________________

Mathew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor i and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. " This is the type of love the bible claims God has! It sure looks like he took off his "love hat" for thousands of years right?

___________________________

Whatever reason we give to excuse god's inaction must work if we were to present it to the lady in the photograph below. If we would be embarassed to say it to her then it is probably Ivory Tower bullshit and we should think again.

Take a look at the answers that have been proposed in this thread and consider whether they would seem reasonable to her...

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

sunny23

Having been 7 months since i first posted on the first page of this topic I have just read those posts and acknowledged a huge transfromation in myself for the better. How naieve I was! I feel inclined to apologize for my lack of mental creativity to think in a more moral perspective but I won't. I still held a JW bias. In fact I will thank Cofty and all others who contributed for and against his initial claims for helping me and others to grow! :) This is why I joined.

I especially am gratefull for the part where I tried to defend the "paradise is the ultimate goal" theory to downplay suffering and up-play rewards and Cofty developed Theodicy #15 after posing the question, " To be clear the question that has to be addressed is "does the promise of eternal life make suffering morally right?"

I really thought I had it figured out. Even when #15 was made I read it over and over and still disagreed with it, but couldn't come up with anything solid enough to post confidently in rebuttle. I remember typing up long winded posts only to delete them after proof-reading only to find out it was totally useless or morally unacceptable.

Re-reading much of this thread now after 7 months of spiritual self introspection and research I find this whole thread (especially the fformative pages leading to 74) essential to those who are truly open minded enough and in search of the "truth."

15. Suffering will be unimportant compared to eternal rewards

Response - This is ethically repugnant. It is an extreme example of "the end justifies the means" defense, so beloved of tyrants.

Like other theodices it is dehumanising by reducing humans to pawns in god's game.

Imagine that scientists developed a pill that would eradicate all unwelcome memories and create a feeling of bliss.

How would you judge a scientist who imposed the most horrific suffering on millions of people, as unwilling subjects of his experiment, but who gave all of them one of the magic pills when it was over?

40

Blood in whose army!?

by sunny23 in

used this method to logically convince my friend who is also dfd of one of many reasons as to why i shall never return and he agreed.

let me know if anything is false or misleading and we can revise :).

blood transfusions:.

sunny23

I don't think Jesus of the gospels ever broke the sabbath.

Thats why I re-worded it to say "showed exemptions from the law"

No. Eating blood or unbled meat of an animal that had been killed resulted in the person being "cut-off". This is likely a reference to capital punishment.

Did people get executed for eating blood in the bible?

Yes absolutely they did.

It says that those who eat blood will be "cut off from his people." Thought that meant exiled. Maybe not. And when did someone get executed in the bible for eating blood? I can't find it. BTW I'm just trying to understand and refine my ability to reason against the blood issue with a JW. I have heard the details of Jewish law concerning the sacredness of blood and the reasoning behind why orothodox Jews get blood transfusions. The fact it comes from live donors is key and of course Pikuach Nefesh

104

How to Avoid the Faithless Spirit of most here-

by DocHouse in

1- pray to god (whomever you may imagine him to be) asking for understanding.

2- study the background about the bible (from non-religious sources) to see where it came from.

3- discard (or at least set aside) chuyrch claims and dogma.. 4- read it, looking up archaeological/historical sources about the places and peoples referred to.

sunny23

The EVIDENCE is in how well our body (and all living things) is formed, and all its many parts that function TOGETHER. Combined with ecosyatems that have what the body needs to live, the design is obvious, unless blinded by emotion....Doc

DOC:

That reasoning contradicts itself for a believer as yourself. Is not God far more complex than our brain and nervous system? Is not God far more complex than our ecosystems? Yet you believe that God was not created! By your logic, you give me more reason to say that God MUST have been created! He is far more complex than anything we know. There is no way he wasn't created!

The belief that God has always existed and was not created is even more preposterous and requires a larger leap of faith than the belief that: the known elements of the universe have always existed in some form and out of billions of galaxies with sextillions of planets and stars that one of them (milky way) would contain a planet just close enough to a star in the right orbit with the right amount of resources to produce life over billions of years time. Try another form of evidence please. You said that, "faith is held in the things unseen." Keep to that advice my friend :) Don't use "things seen" as "evidence" for God :)

40

Blood in whose army!?

by sunny23 in

used this method to logically convince my friend who is also dfd of one of many reasons as to why i shall never return and he agreed.

let me know if anything is false or misleading and we can revise :).

blood transfusions:.

sunny23

After re-reading all the comments I guess I should reword the questionaire. I believe it still holds a strong pro-transfusion argument to JW's..

Blood Transfusions:

Back in ancient times , the OT, were the 10 commandments important?

Yes

Was there any blood law mentioned in them?

No

The Sabbath and keeping it was one of the 10 commandments right?

Yes

Breaking that commandment meant severe punishment, death, a greater punishment than breaking a so called blood law?

Yes

Exodus 31:14-15 "You shall keep the Sabbath, for it is holy unto you: every one that defiles it shall surely be put to DEATH: for whosoever does ANY work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever does any work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to DEATH."

Did people get executed for eating blood in the bible?

No

Is it safe to say that keeping to the ten commandments was just as important as a law on blood?

Yes

Did Jesus ever show exemptions from the God instituted Sabbath law?

Yes

How did he?

Matthew 12:1-13

Jesus said: "What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the Sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? How much then is a man better than a sheep?Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the Sabbath days. Then said he to the man, Stretch forth your hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other."

So Jesus taught that the preservation of life supersedes scriptural law?

Yes

Can a blood transfusion save a life?

Yes

Did they have the capabilities to use blood to save lives in the bible?

No

Is saving a human life more important than restoring a human hand?

Yes

Are humans more important that Sheep?

No...JK