Do you feel embarrsed?
I once tried to sell Watchtower "consolation" to a lady I knew quite well who had just lost her newborn son. I still feel very bad and embarrassed about it.
Saintbertholdt
JoinedPosts by Saintbertholdt
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Do you feel embarrsed?
by The Rebel inwhen you look through a keyhole, and see the person you once were?.
as for myself, i am just pleased i have mended my ways.
i realise ( now) my time as a witness was a keyhole that looked in to the ground, and licked the elders arse.
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Saintbertholdt
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After the yellow star,
by The Rebel ini am the new vermin.. of course by disfellowshipping myself i don't need put a yellow star on my jacket.
but i am identifying myself to be looked at and resented like people did with the jews.. yes i am overdramatising my possible misfortune.
i will still be allowed on the buses, to visit the zoo, and such places that were deprived the sight of jewish families.
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Long but interesting article: Russia: Religious literature banned and blocked
by AndersonsInfo infyi, this article is very, very long.
it's about both the jws and the muslims, but don't give up reading when only the muslims are discussed because the jws are brought back into the article again and again.
lots of food for thought and for discussion too.. barbara .
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Saintbertholdt
On 8 July 2015 the Russian parliament proposed the banning of 12 organizations. The 12 organizations are: The Open Society Institute, also known as the Soros Foundation, the National Endowment for Democracy, the International Republican Institute, the National Democratic Institute, the MacArthur Foundation, Freedom House, the Charles Stewart Mott Foundation, the Education for Democracy Foundation, the East European Democratic Center, the Ukrainian World Congress, the Ukrainian World Coordinating Council, and the Crimean Field Mission on Human Rights. (notice the recurrence of the word Democracy) -
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Everybody loves Raymond
by Saintbertholdt ina while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".
the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.
by nature i am an iconoclast.
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Saintbertholdt
Hi steve2,
There are only ever humans, doing their darndest to get their needs met in a way that tries to minimize the likelihood of being badly misunderstood by those who count.
You're absolutely right about people and motives. I would say that Franz had altruistic motives and personal motives and when one looks at his life or anyone else one must neither exclude one or the other (as you pointed out). What I also have to point out is how people who are heroes, eventually become icons, then "saints", and finally demigods.
An interesting counterpoint to me is a phenomena like YouTube. Have you ever noticed that even the greatest most brilliant, popular and/or insightful videos will always at least have one down vote? (Due to the unrestricted audience) Actually I smile when I see at least one opinion of damnation and then wonder: Who would actually have down voted this? What could they possibly have disagreed with or thought was so wrong? In the end it shows me that I'm still living and alive on planet earth and that diverse opinions must always exist in a society that wants to be healthy. Now I have to say that in the past I've actually never come across a Raymond Franz "down vote" on any of the threads on the forum. So when I saw Vinmans thread it bothered me that I had never even considered a critical evaluation of Franz, and so I had to offer the second down vote.
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Everybody loves Raymond
by Saintbertholdt ina while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".
the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.
by nature i am an iconoclast.
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Saintbertholdt
Well Wulf allow me to retort,
Ok I really will disappear now
Yeah well I get the last word then, don't I? :)
"The late period you refer to is when he had basically already lost and the org started recoiling from the changes he had been pushing for."
Compare the James Book to In search of Christian freedom. The ideas expressed are basically parallel regarding reliance on conscience instead of an organization with a Talmud. This was Raymonds first attempt at a real doctrinal shift and happened post 1975. The changes in the early 70s (as you pointed out) were organizational and regarding those organizational changes as you well know the GB changes of the two thirds stuck and so did the committees. Raymond was never after the Presidency (if you may have thought that was my argument), he was after his uncle's position as chief theologian. Why did he feel he could do so? Because after 1975 he could reasonably raise the specter of 1914. But he didn't challenge the 1914 date directly (that was left for the bethelite discussions in the backroom), instead he focused on his main theological point: Christian conscience supersedes an organizations authority.
So I believe that Raymond's late GB period was his actual battle because it was a struggle for theological control of and to give a new direction to the organization.
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Everybody loves Raymond
by Saintbertholdt ina while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".
the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.
by nature i am an iconoclast.
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Saintbertholdt
I'm sorry my rhetoric was not to your satisfaction.
But then again what you are actually saying is that his struggle just took longer than I had imagined.
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Everybody loves Raymond
by Saintbertholdt ina while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".
the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.
by nature i am an iconoclast.
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Saintbertholdt
Hi Wulf,
He didn't just wake up in 75 and say "I want control of the theology"
No I guess it would be from about 1 January 1976 until he lost the war in 1980.
he had already essentially lost the power struggle, whatever it entailed.
Well his struggle only really came to the fore from 1977 with the James book preparation.
The shift to GB meant Freddy Franz has already been disempowered in a sense, anyways.
One might have thought so with the committee splits in 1975 under Knorr but... the rule was also changed that now only a two thirds majority was needed in the GB to carry a motion where before it had to be unanimous. What about theological control? Was the governing body in fact steering things now? Fred Franz said to the entire Bethel family on 25 May 1980, that some "expected me to ignore the influence of world events in the light of Bible prophecy for the last 67 years, and to start over where we began 67 years ago." (Penton p.160) - I wonder was Frederick using the royal "we"? :)
IMO Ray portrays himself as fundamentally responsible for initiating the shift from Presidency to GB in CoC...the Presidency was turned into a figurehead by the GB by that point. And who had played a major role in that?
Interestingly enough there is an audio recording (1975 0906 talk with comments - post 1980) of Ray Franz where he agrees with Frederick on a talk he gave where Frederick actually argues against the idea of a Governing Body (obviously because he was next in line for presidency and did not like interference). From his comments on the recording Raymond obviously recanted from the idea of a controlling governing body. For uncle Frederick the two thirds rule meant a matter could now in fact be swayed more easily and theologically he was still firmly in control until the day he died. And that power is what Raymond wanted...Hence In search of Christian Freedom. That is what the organization would have turned into had Raymond had his way. -
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My identification photo that I am human, not computer. hahaha. just kidding.
by pureginseng0 ina moment, minute ago, i decided to upload and change my profile.. you will find my identification photo that prove i am just a human being.. not a computer!!.
hahaha.. just a kidding.
from south korea of seoul.. ji-seong lee.
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Saintbertholdt
Hi pureginseng0,
I'm a computer program sent from the DPRK and the future to pass the Turing test and to infiltrate JWN.
All hail the Supreme Leader! and also welcome.
HADOUKEN!
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Everybody loves Raymond
by Saintbertholdt ina while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".
the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.
by nature i am an iconoclast.
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Saintbertholdt
Hi John Aquila and all who have responded,
John you asked about what could Franz have gained by making a power play. He already was on the governing body after all.
My answer is as follows: Just before Rutherford died he split the power of the Watchtower into a triumvirate: Knorr was the head with administrative power, Franz got theology and Covington legal.
By the late 60's Covington was a washed up drunk and so after Knorr died in 77 all power now concentrated in Franz. Interestingly Knorr died two years after the failed 75 prediction just like Russell did in 1916 after the 1914 failure (For comparison see William Miller). I don't mention Rutherford because he made a special plea with the 1941 prediction: 'Save me Jehovah I'm dying of cancer' (That man had no shame). However Frederick Franz was actually fully responsible for the 75 prediction and he ended up with the Kingdom.
I would argue that Raymond wanted to split the power up again so that he would get theology. His reasoning I think would be something like this: Well uncle you really botched things up with 1975 didn't you? Isn't it time somebody (a younger man) took over that knew what Christianity was actually all about? You might have been good back in the day, but after Knorr gave us free reign on research, we're (me and Dunlap) every bit as good at theology as you ever were. As a matter of fact we've surpassed you.
Frederick's response: Oh really?
Footnote: After Raymond left Watchtower HQ who did he give an interview to? The NY Eagle who was the traditional press foe of the Watchtower in NY? No, Time magazine. Raymond, you sly dog you.
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Everybody loves Raymond
by Saintbertholdt ina while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".
the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.
by nature i am an iconoclast.
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Saintbertholdt
Hi OnTheWayOut,
I know this thread implies that Ray wasn't originally intent on helping people, but rather helping himself.
No, what I'm saying is that he wanted to wake up JW's and help himself in the process. In other words his personal motive he hid from view.
I agree with the rest of your post e.g. "if the G.B. wanted to sneak off...I would help them pack." except for "...he never created a following for himself." That is not true at all. He received thousands of pieces of correspondence and thank you letters, got invited to talks all over with the adulation which accompanies it and to this very day we all kneel at his statue. Well sometimes I take a wiz on statues.
