Saintbertholdt

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Posts by Saintbertholdt

• 
  73

  Everybody loves Raymond

  by Saintbertholdt in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

  the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

  by nature i am an iconoclast.

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  Saintbertholdt

  Well Wulf allow me to retort,

  Ok I really will disappear now

  Yeah well I get the last word then, don't I? :)

  "The late period you refer to is when he had basically already lost and the org started recoiling from the changes he had been pushing for."

  Compare the James Book to In search of Christian freedom. The ideas expressed are basically parallel regarding reliance on conscience instead of an organization with a Talmud. This was Raymonds first attempt at a real doctrinal shift and happened post 1975. The changes in the early 70s (as you pointed out) were organizational and regarding those organizational changes as you well know the GB changes of the two thirds stuck and so did the committees. Raymond was never after the Presidency (if you may have thought that was my argument), he was after his uncle's position as chief theologian. Why did he feel he could do so? Because after 1975 he could reasonably raise the specter of 1914. But he didn't challenge the 1914 date directly (that was left for the bethelite discussions in the backroom), instead he focused on his main theological point: Christian conscience supersedes an organizations authority.

  So I believe that Raymond's late GB period was his actual battle because it was a struggle for theological control of and to give a new direction to the organization.

  
  
• 
  73

  Everybody loves Raymond

  by Saintbertholdt in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

  the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

  by nature i am an iconoclast.

  1. 
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  Saintbertholdt

  I'm sorry my rhetoric was not to your satisfaction.

  But then again what you are actually saying is that his struggle just took longer than I had imagined.
• 
  73

  Everybody loves Raymond

  by Saintbertholdt in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

  the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

  by nature i am an iconoclast.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Saintbertholdt

  Hi Wulf,

  He didn't just wake up in 75 and say "I want control of the theology"

  No I guess it would be from about 1 January 1976 until he lost the war in 1980.

  he had already essentially lost the power struggle, whatever it entailed.
  

  Well his struggle only really came to the fore from 1977 with the James book preparation.

  The shift to GB meant Freddy Franz has already been disempowered in a sense, anyways.

  One might have thought so with the committee splits in 1975 under Knorr but... the rule was also changed that now only a two thirds majority was needed in the GB to carry a motion where before it had to be unanimous. What about theological control? Was the governing body in fact steering things now? Fred Franz said to the entire Bethel family on 25 May 1980, that some "expected me to ignore the influence of world events in the light of Bible prophecy for the last 67 years, and to start over where we began 67 years ago." (Penton p.160) - I wonder was Frederick using the royal "we"? :)

  IMO Ray portrays himself as fundamentally responsible for initiating the shift from Presidency to GB in CoC...the Presidency was turned into a figurehead by the GB by that point. And who had played a major role in that?
  

  Interestingly enough there is an audio recording (1975 0906 talk with comments - post 1980) of Ray Franz where he agrees with Frederick on a talk he gave where Frederick actually argues against the idea of a Governing Body (obviously because he was next in line for presidency and did not like interference). From his comments on the recording Raymond obviously recanted from the idea of a controlling governing body. For uncle Frederick the two thirds rule meant a matter could now in fact be swayed more easily and theologically he was still firmly in control until the day he died. And that power is what Raymond wanted...Hence In search of Christian Freedom. That is what the organization would have turned into had Raymond had his way.
  
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  12

  My identification photo that I am human, not computer. hahaha. just kidding.

  by pureginseng0 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  a moment, minute ago, i decided to upload and change my profile.. you will find my identification photo that prove i am just a human being.. not a computer!!.

  hahaha.. just a kidding.

  from south korea of seoul.. ji-seong lee.

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  Saintbertholdt

  Hi pureginseng0,

  I'm a computer program sent from the DPRK and the future to pass the Turing test and to infiltrate JWN.

  All hail the Supreme Leader! and also welcome.

  HADOUKEN!

  

  
  

  
  
• 
  73

  Everybody loves Raymond

  by Saintbertholdt in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

  the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

  by nature i am an iconoclast.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Saintbertholdt

  Hi John Aquila and all who have responded,

  John you asked about what could Franz have gained by making a power play. He already was on the governing body after all.

  My answer is as follows: Just before Rutherford died he split the power of the Watchtower into a triumvirate: Knorr was the head with administrative power, Franz got theology and Covington legal.

  By the late 60's Covington was a washed up drunk and so after Knorr died in 77 all power now concentrated in Franz. Interestingly Knorr died two years after the failed 75 prediction just like Russell did in 1916 after the 1914 failure (For comparison see William Miller). I don't mention Rutherford because he made a special plea with the 1941 prediction: 'Save me Jehovah I'm dying of cancer' (That man had no shame). However Frederick Franz was actually fully responsible for the 75 prediction and he ended up with the Kingdom.

  I would argue that Raymond wanted to split the power up again so that he would get theology. His reasoning I think would be something like this: Well uncle you really botched things up with 1975 didn't you? Isn't it time somebody (a younger man) took over that knew what Christianity was actually all about? You might have been good back in the day, but after Knorr gave us free reign on research, we're (me and Dunlap) every bit as good at theology as you ever were. As a matter of fact we've surpassed you.

  Frederick's response: Oh really?

  Footnote: After Raymond left Watchtower HQ who did he give an interview to? The NY Eagle who was the traditional press foe of the Watchtower in NY? No, Time magazine. Raymond, you sly dog you.
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  73

  Everybody loves Raymond

  by Saintbertholdt in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

  the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

  by nature i am an iconoclast.

  1. 
  2. 
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  Saintbertholdt

  Hi OnTheWayOut,

  I know this thread implies that Ray wasn't originally intent on helping people, but rather helping himself.
  

  No, what I'm saying is that he wanted to wake up JW's and help himself in the process. In other words his personal motive he hid from view.

  I agree with the rest of your post e.g. "if the G.B. wanted to sneak off...I would help them pack." except for "...he never created a following for himself." That is not true at all. He received thousands of pieces of correspondence and thank you letters, got invited to talks all over with the adulation which accompanies it and to this very day we all kneel at his statue. Well sometimes I take a wiz on statues.

  
  
• 
  73

  Everybody loves Raymond

  by Saintbertholdt in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

  the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

  by nature i am an iconoclast.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Saintbertholdt

  I had friends at Bethel that said he would mingle with the workers and discuss their personal matters and concerns with them. Ray seemed genuine in his concern for the boys at bethel and how they were doing (according to my friend), while other elites treated him (my friend) harshly.
  

  A man of the people for the people. Caesar was beloved too.

  I can't impute a takeover strategy to him or even impure motives...don't think it's in his personality.

  Why would he reformulate the Watchtower doctrine in line with conventional Christianity? This after the 1975 debacle. He omits any personal details of the conflict between him and his uncle to the point where it seems as if the post '77 Watchtower president was just one of the bunch. And that was not the case. Frederick was arrogant and self-important (if you listen to his talks) and had formulated most of the Watchtower doctrine from the late 1930s onward.

  Hell I actually don't know how to stick the dagger into Raymond Franz on this one... he just looked so kind and meek, and was so soft spoken.
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  42

  1975 all over again!!!

  by John Aquila in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  wt study edition jan. 2015.

  here is the bait:.

  as the number of kingdom proclaimers increases and as we near the end of this system of things, there is an urgent need for more facilities.

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  Saintbertholdt

  Sell your house and go volunteer at Wall--KILL The End is coming!!!!!
  

  Oh, and don't forget to bequeath your nest egg from the sale of your house to the organization when you die.
• 
  73

  Everybody loves Raymond

  by Saintbertholdt in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

  the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

  by nature i am an iconoclast.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Saintbertholdt

  They were definitely taking steps toward a kinder gentler organization before Ray and Ed Dunlap left.
  

  In Search of Christian Freedom is a continuation and reformulation of the James Book methinks.
• 
  73

  Everybody loves Raymond

  by Saintbertholdt in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

  the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

  by nature i am an iconoclast.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Saintbertholdt

  Out of the [pure] abundance of his heart St.B. speaks.

  I'm a selfish bastard.