Posts by Saintbertholdt

73

Everybody loves Raymond

by Saintbertholdt in

a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

by nature i am an iconoclast.

Saintbertholdt

I had friends at Bethel that said he would mingle with the workers and discuss their personal matters and concerns with them. Ray seemed genuine in his concern for the boys at bethel and how they were doing (according to my friend), while other elites treated him (my friend) harshly.

A man of the people for the people. Caesar was beloved too.

I can't impute a takeover strategy to him or even impure motives...don't think it's in his personality.

Why would he reformulate the Watchtower doctrine in line with conventional Christianity? This after the 1975 debacle. He omits any personal details of the conflict between him and his uncle to the point where it seems as if the post '77 Watchtower president was just one of the bunch. And that was not the case. Frederick was arrogant and self-important (if you listen to his talks) and had formulated most of the Watchtower doctrine from the late 1930s onward.

Hell I actually don't know how to stick the dagger into Raymond Franz on this one... he just looked so kind and meek, and was so soft spoken.

42

1975 all over again!!!

by John Aquila in

wt study edition jan. 2015.

here is the bait:.

as the number of kingdom proclaimers increases and as we near the end of this system of things, there is an urgent need for more facilities.

Saintbertholdt

Sell your house and go volunteer at Wall--KILL The End is coming!!!!!

Oh, and don't forget to bequeath your nest egg from the sale of your house to the organization when you die.

73

Everybody loves Raymond

by Saintbertholdt in

a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

by nature i am an iconoclast.

Saintbertholdt

They were definitely taking steps toward a kinder gentler organization before Ray and Ed Dunlap left.

In Search of Christian Freedom is a continuation and reformulation of the James Book methinks.

73

Everybody loves Raymond

by Saintbertholdt in

a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

by nature i am an iconoclast.

Saintbertholdt

Out of the [pure] abundance of his heart St.B. speaks.

I'm a selfish bastard.

73

Everybody loves Raymond

by Saintbertholdt in

a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

by nature i am an iconoclast.

Saintbertholdt

Hi Wasanelder Once,

The stipend was hush money

Damn straight. But also for a lifetime of service. If he accepted it the GB knew he would keep quiet. He would not have been DF'd and the shunning rules would never have been re-introduced. When he declined they knew what he was going to do next. The fact is he was not a 'Hannibal' who would quietly retire after defeat. He was now going to declare a new war using his pen.

I get the sense from his book CoC and videos of him giving talks on YouTube in Europe that he was not in any way seeking status or prominence.

True. On the other hand one could argue his bid for power failed so in defeat his narrative had to take a very particular slant. If you get 70+ corrections in one chapter of a new book of which you are the editor, this is a strong signal that you're altering doctrines and that you're challenging the status quo. And the status always wants to remain quo.

73

Everybody loves Raymond

by Saintbertholdt in

a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

by nature i am an iconoclast.

Saintbertholdt

Hi Steve,

Franz did not only skirt around Greenlees, he skirted around Frederick as well. Why? There was much more going on between the two than he let on and he didn't want to expose too much of their internal politics.

As I wrote to John Aquila, I don't want to push the Greenlees issue too hard because it has repercussions. I do want to give my thoughts on why I think he omitted Greenlees in this response post and then I'll let it go. I'll refer to this post, but don't want to comment on the Greenlees thing any further. In retrospect I should have left it out in the original post because it can just get ugly. Perhaps that's what Raymond thought :)

You are right that if Franz outed Greenlees it would have lowered the integrity of the GB from politically minded men to the everyday sick and fucked up shit humanity has to deal with on a daily basis. It would have shown the GB for the clowns (copyright LostGeneration) that they are. I further contend that Franz would have been happy to remain a part of the Clownshow if his theological changes were implemented.

But then again the argument is valid that the Greenlees accusations were possibly just accusations. But isn't that what everybody is on about today anyway? The way things are handled in sexual molestation cases. Why was this swept under the rug? Why did Franz not draw attention to the procedure unless he was fine with it?

73

Everybody loves Raymond

by Saintbertholdt in

a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

by nature i am an iconoclast.

Saintbertholdt

Ray's books had a tremendous effect on my thinking, and his way of writing, without the flaming apostate attitude I was led to believe I would find by WTBTS, impressed me greatly. However, I believe he knew what he was eventually going to do when he left if he could not make reforms from the inside.

Thanks for the good insights.

I will say CoC definitely had a positive effect on me.

The motivation for this thread came from the way everybody came down on Vinman. Now he did not really provide any arguments for Ray being an 'idiot' so he got hammered. But the thread also showed the fact that Franz has in some ways obtained a demigod status in ex-JW circles.

So I guess I want to peg him down a notch or two. Franz wanted to rule the world like everybody else, and he had personal selfish motivations. His supposed pure altruism was pure horse manure.

73

Everybody loves Raymond

by Saintbertholdt in

a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

by nature i am an iconoclast.

Saintbertholdt

"Also, and I may be wrong here, was not Leo Greenlees made to leave because he was gay - not a pederast."

Possibly both. The threads on the forum say that the accusations were made by a boy. Decades later a (now grown) man by the name of Mark Palo made the accusation on video.

73

Everybody loves Raymond

by Saintbertholdt in

a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

by nature i am an iconoclast.

Saintbertholdt

Leading on from that, what I find interesting is that he so obviously didn't trust Gods 'loving, only true' Christian organization in the least!

Ah hahahahahaha. As in all politics you definitely can't trust the other guy to play fair.

73

Everybody loves Raymond

by Saintbertholdt in

a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

by nature i am an iconoclast.

Saintbertholdt

"They didn't move on him right after he moved away, they had to find something to "get him" on, and they even had to change the DA doctrine just to get him on that."

When he refused the Watchtower stipend they knew he would not keep quiet. Frederick knew what he was going to do and had to make sure no one would associate with him or read his book. Yeah it F'd everybody else in A for decades to come but hey, it was war. Raymond Franz felt pangs of conscience over the reason for his DF'ing because he knew how much pain it caused and because his own motives were not snowy white.