Posts by Saintbertholdt

73

Everybody loves Raymond

by Saintbertholdt in

a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

by nature i am an iconoclast.

Saintbertholdt

Leading on from that, what I find interesting is that he so obviously didn't trust Gods 'loving, only true' Christian organization in the least!

Ah hahahahahaha. As in all politics you definitely can't trust the other guy to play fair.

73

Everybody loves Raymond

by Saintbertholdt in

a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

by nature i am an iconoclast.

Saintbertholdt

"They didn't move on him right after he moved away, they had to find something to "get him" on, and they even had to change the DA doctrine just to get him on that."

When he refused the Watchtower stipend they knew he would not keep quiet. Frederick knew what he was going to do and had to make sure no one would associate with him or read his book. Yeah it F'd everybody else in A for decades to come but hey, it was war. Raymond Franz felt pangs of conscience over the reason for his DF'ing because he knew how much pain it caused and because his own motives were not snowy white.

73

Everybody loves Raymond

by Saintbertholdt in

a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

by nature i am an iconoclast.

Saintbertholdt

and I believe Ray was trying to exit peacefully.

I'm going to be blunt here: I think Franz was making a power play for chief theologian in the late 70's after the 75 failure. He was smart enough to make a backup plan when he saw his effort failing though. C'mon him and Dunlap were being blatant regarding their intent through the James book and their conversations with the Spanish Bethelites.

Ray probably gave much thought as to how the subjects in the book would affect the over-all tone or attitude of his book.

Yep he was a smart man :)

he wrote so that it would not come off as hateful rhetoric against a group of people that kicked him out.

I don't know about that. Malawi/Mexico basically makes the GB out to be war criminals with Franz being the lone dissenter. That he used toned down language I agree with, but the accusations are very clear.

I don't think he pulled his punches at all.

73

Everybody loves Raymond

by Saintbertholdt in

a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

by nature i am an iconoclast.

Saintbertholdt

Now I can see the relevance of continuing on the subject in the book if the GB allowed Greenlees to continue serving as a GB, but since they dismissed him, it kind of ended the matter. They could not be accused of allowing him to serve after the fact of the matter when the majority became aware.

Ok I won't push the Greenlees matter too hard. What do you think about Franz being oblivious as to what was going to happen to him? He was way too intelligent not to pick up on what was going down. In CoC he plays the innocent victim. I call bullshit on that.

73

Everybody loves Raymond

by Saintbertholdt in

a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

by nature i am an iconoclast.

Saintbertholdt

Crisis of Conscience was not the place to make that kind of allegation.

Why not? He insinuates that the GB are the equivalent of War criminals with Malawi/Mexico. He discussed the sexual practice of a man in a wheelchair.

If there was enough evidence to make an allegation, it should have been made to the police, not published in a book.

Franz did not defend Greenlees either. His reputation has been destroyed as a result.

73

Everybody loves Raymond

by Saintbertholdt in

a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

by nature i am an iconoclast.

Saintbertholdt

Maybe Franz only had second hand knowledge and wasn't totally sure if the accusations were true. It was a witch-hunt environment during that time and accusations were flying left and right.

Well Franz did not come to Greenlees' defense either. Today his reputation is blighted because no one has given any insight except for the accusations. Also the evidence must have been convincing enough to get two thirds majority on the governing body. If Franz thought it was BS why didn't he at least mention that he thought Greenlees' dismissal was unfair. He didn't even have to mention the particular accusation. He wrote about EVERYTHING else.

73

Everybody loves Raymond

by Saintbertholdt in

a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

by nature i am an iconoclast.

Saintbertholdt

Hello there all,

A while ago the user Vinman started a forum thread called: "Ray Franz was an Idiot". The reaction to it was quite negative but I have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me. By nature I am an iconoclast. If life was a Shakespeare play I would be a Cassius: "...he [Caesar] doth bestride the narrow world like a Colossus, and we petty men walk under his huge legs and peep about to find ourselves dishonourable graves." This past week or so I have not been able to forget Vinman's thread and so it got me seriously thinking about Raymond Franz.

During his last days at the Watchtower Brooklyn HQ, why did Franz decide to retain all of his governing body correspondence and transport it with him when he left the organization? He had to have taken it all because if he left Brooklyn with only the correspondence presented within his first book, he clearly already had a prepared agenda. The reasonable conclusion is that he took the entire collection of Watchtower historic correspondence with him and so the question becomes why?

It's not as if the letters and documents were like a family photo album and he could warmly reminisce about Malawi/Mexico. He therefore knew that within the stacks of boring correspondence there lurked damnation and he knew that he could use it. Franz' paper trail is immaculate, too immaculate. Perhaps even more complete than Watergate's. Could he actually claim that he didn't already know that he would write a book when he stepped out on the pavement of Columbia Heights (remember this was also before he was disfellowshipped)? Isn't it most probable that he very well knew much earlier than he ever acknowledged, that he would probably end up being a heretic? Perhaps as early as 1975? If this is the case wasn't he just gathering evidence while he was on the 'inside'?

Very late in Raymond Franz' Governing body career, his uncle Frederick Franz challenged more than 70+ points in the James book written by Edward Dunlap, in one chapter alone, while it was being prepared for publication. Raymond took matters up with Frederick and according to Dunlap he got worn out by the whole process. But wasn't it wearing Frederick down too? After all both Raymond and Ed Dunlap were having conversations with the Spanish brethren (the contents of which was being leaked) and they were essentially building a new doctrine behind Raymond's uncles back. They were also clearly setting up preliminary changes through the James book and Frederick obviously picked up on this. Now Raymond was an intelligent man, but then according to him it never occurred to him that the situation would turn into a witch hunt. Really? 70+ points of doctrinal disagreement with the Watchtowers 'Oracle' in one session was not giving him a hint? Isn't it more probable that there was actually more happening than he let on?

Wasn't he in fact indirectly challenging Frederick on his status as the organizations chief theologian? Wasn't he making a power play but with an emergency backup plan? When him and his wife went on a two week vacation before his downfall, how could he claim that he had no clue what the Governing Body would do? Isn't it more plausible that he took a vacation because he knew that if they moved on him, he could burn them in turn, cause a scandal and birth a long term book return? Isn't it most probable that he very well knew that he would have to be a martyr (all the while meticulously documenting the process) and would have to go through the 'Sanhedrin' experience to feel justified in his subsequent actions? By using the term 'Sanhedrin' he characterizes himself as a proto-Jesus. Couldn't his actual inner motivations also have made him a proto-Judas?

Franz' first book was an expose, his second a redefinition of his faith. This was in fact not new in Watchtower history and he was actually a copycat: William J. Schnell wrote 'Thirty Years a Watchtower slave' and then 'Into The Light of Christianity' way before Raymond did. The first book was a best seller and the second was less popular because Schnell tried to sell the reader on established Christianity. I dare say that Schnell's book sequence and themes are uncannily like the Franz efforts (although Franz possessed more dirt). Was Franz' two books natural progressions like Schnells (as part of some evolving catharsis) or did he know about Schnell's work through his own extensive research (including access to the apostasy literature book closet at Watchtower HQ) which was sanctioned by 70's Watchtower President Knorr?

Most worrisome is why Franz didn't gun Leo Greenlees in 'Crisis of conscience'. In the book he mentioned Greenlees having to leave while he still resided on the Governing Body. Franz gave his vote to make him step down and yet he kept absolutely silent on the matter of why Greenlees was kicked out. Wasn't his silence complacency? Franz wrote about everything else, why not this particular subject? The Watchtower pedorist scandal already broke three years before the last revision of his first book (2001 and 2004 respectively), yet he still kept silent. Was it too uncomfortable for him or was he just protecting Greenlees and his own reputation? So why wasn't his conscience in crisis over this particular matter?

In his defense Franz wrote the most influential book concerning Jehovah's Witnesses to date. The book is uppermost important for exposing not only some of the best examples of Watchtower scandal, but it also exposes the internal workings of the Watchtower G.O.D. (Guardians of Doctrine). Franz' first book is still the gold standard for people coming off the Watchtower merry go round and his second effort is a serious attempt to explain his post Watchtower beliefs. Within it he tries to advance Christian understanding from his own evolving Biblical perspective. He also wrote down a most beautiful and quotable book opening: "Life is uncertain and when a man dies what he knows dies along with him - unless he passes it on while still in life." Lastly, and by all accounts and in every public appearance, Raymond Franz was a very very nice and meek man. I actually did like him very much.

SOOOOOOOOO....

11

what do you really believe

by Sabin in

what do you really believe the percentage is for jw who are truly ignorant of what is going on behind closed doors of the w.t.

as opposed to those who actually know something is wrong & yet go along with it for whatever reason?

i have been asked for coffee by what i can only describe as one of the sweetest persons i have ever known & i cant even begin to conceive that she knows what is happening with the child abuse cases but then how do i know?

Saintbertholdt

While I was a Jehovah's Witness I had no clue about the UN association, the Child abuse scandal (which was just beginning to break in the media), Malawi/Mexico, anything of significance about what had been taught before 1950 (Except that "yeah they even celebrated Christmas back in the day, ha ha"). I didn't know that there were Governing Body members who had left or were forced to leave, I really didn't know who the governing body members were except for Knorr and Henschel, I couldn't have imagined the Watchtower having significant financial long term investments, I was fuzzy how the blood doctrine had changed. I didn't know the baptism questions had been dramatically altered over the decades, 1975 was a storm in a teacup and I didn't know about 1914 (the Armageddon prediction), 1915, 1918, 1925, 1935, 1941 etc. The list is endless.

When I was a JW and even for a couple of years after I left the organization, I would never have read anything anti-Watchtower and would never have visited an ex-JW website.

I considered myself a well informed individual.

78

Need Help with Blood Transfusion Illustration

by Dissonant15 in

please, who can provide an intelligent rebuttal to the following illustration?

i always thought it was bullet-proof:.

"if your doctor directs you to 'abstain from alcohol' would you be ok to have it injected into your veins rather than drink it?

Saintbertholdt

But your doctor actually told you the following: 'abstain from alcohol before you drive'

In the same manner God directed the Israelite's to abstain from blood when they had killed an animal for sacrifice. The abstinence from blood was always in connection with the taking of a life. If an Israelite farmer found an animal "already dead" he was free to eat it with impunity. Lev. 11:38,39. Blood is not intrinsically sacred; it is only sacred insofar as it represents a life that has been taken.

The main purpose of a blood transfusion is to preserve life and has nothing to do with the taking of a life. Hence according to JW reasoning and usage of the 'blood is sacred' mantra, transfusions are perfectly ok according to the Hebrew god.

See: http://www.jehovahswitness.com/topic/204070001/watchtowerrightaboutblood

21

What Just Showed Up in My Facebook Feed

by Dissonant15 in

gross!!!

i think i'm going to be sick.

time to unfollow & block more people... .