Saintbertholdt

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Posts by Saintbertholdt

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  28

  Where did they understood the anointed ones would be before the "great crowd" "revelation"?

  by paradisebeauty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this is a question on old doctrine of jw's.

  before they came up with the "great crowd" "revelation", where did they preached that the anointed ones will be?

  because if they preached it will be in heaven, how did they understood that the prophecies about the earth will be fulfilled?

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  Saintbertholdt

  Which is more confusing, the overlapping generation doctrine or Russell's chart of the ages?

  
  
• 
  28

  Where did they understood the anointed ones would be before the "great crowd" "revelation"?

  by paradisebeauty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this is a question on old doctrine of jw's.

  before they came up with the "great crowd" "revelation", where did they preached that the anointed ones will be?

  because if they preached it will be in heaven, how did they understood that the prophecies about the earth will be fulfilled?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Saintbertholdt

  Ok this is the best I can understand it so far:

  Russell:

  2 X heavenly classes

  1 X Jewish earthly class + proselytes (Pre-pentecostal until present day)

  1 X Christian earthly class (non-Bible Students or non-progressors)

  Rutherford Bible Student era:

  2 X heavenly classes

  1 X Jewish earthly class + proselytes (Pre-pentecostal until present day)

  1 X Christian earthly class (non-Bible Students or non-progressors) - unsure? Probably not. Post Russell and first World War the organization increasingly became sectarian and Rutherford anti-ecumenical. This sentiment had already germinated with Russell after the separation with his wife.

  Rutherford Jehovah's Witness era:

  1 X Heavenly class

  1 X Earthly class
  

  0 X Jewish earthly class
  
  
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  28

  Where did they understood the anointed ones would be before the "great crowd" "revelation"?

  by paradisebeauty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this is a question on old doctrine of jw's.

  before they came up with the "great crowd" "revelation", where did they preached that the anointed ones will be?

  because if they preached it will be in heaven, how did they understood that the prophecies about the earth will be fulfilled?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Saintbertholdt

  Aw crap I don't know any more... This is from Divine Plan of the Ages:
  
  
  Both the n and m classes are on the spirit-begotten plane, M. These two classes have existed together throughout the Gospel age; both covenanted with God to become living sacrifices; both were "accepted in the beloved" and begotten by the Spirit as "new creatures." The difference between them is this: n represents those who are fulfilling their covenant and are dead with Christ to earthly will, aims and ambitions, whilem represents the larger company of the spirit-begotten children who have covenanted, but who, alas! shrink back from the performance of their covenant. The n class consists of the overcomers who will be the Bride of Christ, who will sit with the Lord in his throne in glory--plane K. This is the "little flock" to whom it is the Father's good pleasure to give the Kingdom. (Luke 12:32) Those of the m class shrink from the death of the human will, but God still loves them, and therefore will bring them by the way of adversity and trouble to plane L, the perfect spiritual plane. But they will have lost the right to plane K, the throne of glory, because they were not overcomers. If we prize our Father's love, if we desire our Lord's approval, if we aspire to be members of his body, his Bride, and to sit in his throne, we must fulfil our covenant of sacrifice faithfully and willingly.The majority of the nominal Church is represented by section p. Notice that they are not on plane M, but on plane N. They are justified but not sanctified. They are not fully consecrated to God, and not begotten, therefore, as spirit beings. They are higher than the world, however, because they accept of Jesus as their ransom from sin; but they have not accepted the high-calling of this age to become part of the spiritual family of God. If they continue in faith and fully submit to the righteous laws of Christ's Kingdom, in the Times of Restitution, they will finally attain the likeness of the perfect earthly man, Adam. They will completely recoverall that was lost through him. They will attain the same human perfection, mental, moral and physical, andwill again be in the image of God, as Adam was; for to all this they were redeemed. And their position of justification, plane N, as those who have heard and believed in the salvation through Christ, is a special blessing which they by faith enjoy sooner than the general world (for all shall be brought to an accurate knowledge of the Truth, in the Millennial age). These, however, will have had the advantage of an earlier start and some progress in the right direction. But class p fails to improve the real benefit of this faith justificationin the present time. It is granted now for the special purpose of enabling some to make the acceptable sacrifice, and to become the n class as members of "the body of Christ." Those of class p receive the favor of God [justification] "in vain" (2 Cor. 6:1): they fail to use it to go on and present themselves acceptable sacrifices, during this time in which sacrifices are acceptable to God. Those of this class, though not "saints," not members of the consecrated "body," are called "brethren" by the Apostle. (Rom. 12:1) In the same sense the entire race, when restored, will forever be brethren of the Christ, and the children of God, though of adifferent nature. God is the Father of all in harmony with him, on every plane and of every nature.
  
• 
  28

  Where did they understood the anointed ones would be before the "great crowd" "revelation"?

  by paradisebeauty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this is a question on old doctrine of jw's.

  before they came up with the "great crowd" "revelation", where did they preached that the anointed ones will be?

  because if they preached it will be in heaven, how did they understood that the prophecies about the earth will be fulfilled?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Saintbertholdt

  And the faithful oness on old time to live on earth as princess. Proncess lover who?

  Post Armageddon Jews, pre-Pentecostal Israelites and proselytes.
• 
  28

  Where did they understood the anointed ones would be before the "great crowd" "revelation"?

  by paradisebeauty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this is a question on old doctrine of jw's.

  before they came up with the "great crowd" "revelation", where did they preached that the anointed ones will be?

  because if they preached it will be in heaven, how did they understood that the prophecies about the earth will be fulfilled?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Saintbertholdt

  Rutherford taught multiple classes but I'm not sure about Russell, the book shown above is from Rutherford, is it not Saint?

  Yeah its from Millions now living will never die.
  I know Russell believed and preached consolation for the Jews. And he also believed in two heavenly classes.

  What he believed about the pre-pentecostal earthly resurrection I'm unsure of. He certainly didn't predict 1925, as that was all Rutherford :)
• 
  28

  Where did they understood the anointed ones would be before the "great crowd" "revelation"?

  by paradisebeauty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this is a question on old doctrine of jw's.

  before they came up with the "great crowd" "revelation", where did they preached that the anointed ones will be?

  because if they preached it will be in heaven, how did they understood that the prophecies about the earth will be fulfilled?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Saintbertholdt

  So in short, there were two heavenly classes which only began after Pentecost.

  Everyone before that event would get an earthly resurrection.

  The Jews would also be restored to Palestine.

  So later Rutherford just amalgamated the second heavenly class with the pre-Pentecost earthly class and dropped the consolation for the Jews.
• 
  28

  Where did they understood the anointed ones would be before the "great crowd" "revelation"?

  by paradisebeauty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this is a question on old doctrine of jw's.

  before they came up with the "great crowd" "revelation", where did they preached that the anointed ones will be?

  because if they preached it will be in heaven, how did they understood that the prophecies about the earth will be fulfilled?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Saintbertholdt

  
  

  

  
  
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  11

  Big Bang or Big Bust?

  by redvip2000 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i noticed on the october issue of the awake magazine a much softer stance on the big bang theory.

  now, i'm not sure if officially the org was ever against this theory ( i did not find much on this), but i do recall on a congregation level, there was constant mockery from jws about the idea that universe was the result of a big initial explosion.. we now see a softer position on this.

  as the org now explains:.

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  Saintbertholdt

  Hi redvip2000,

  The Watchtower organization has never been against the theory of the Big Bang. They don't deny that the universe is billions of years old but then have a huge disconnect when it comes to biological evolution. For some reason the universe can take billions of years to arrive at its current state, but life can only take thousands of years. I always thought that was weird that creation days had to be thousands of years but could not be millions of years.

  From the 15 October 1950 Watchtower, Physical Heavens Declare God’s Glory

  "This means that these stars are so far away that the light that left them 1,100,000,000 years ago is just now reaching our globe. So in view of such astronomical facts, such distances, how much greater than time and space and all that fill them must Jehovah God be! What powers of communication he must possess! For moment by moment he knows what is going on in the most distant corner of infinity."

  
  
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  19

  Did anyone see Jackson state "celebrating Christmas not a df'ing offence"?

  by Crazyguy in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  i have seen posts on several you tube sites stating that jackson said during his rc testimony that jw's don't shun, celebrating christmas is not a disfellowshipping offence, birthdays are ok and ones doesn't have to agree with jw doctrine.

  i have read most of the posts on other threads while and after his testimony but never read any of this?

  did he really say these things or is someone on the net just stirring up some bs?.

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  Saintbertholdt

  My understanding is as follows: Geoffrey Jackson could have proclaimed that celebrating your birthday while smoking a stogy was in perfect harmony with scripture, it would actually not mean a thing and here's why.

  Unless the governing body met and backed up his claim with a vote and subsequently had the 'new light' published, its just one mans opinion.

  The governing body are only G.O.D. when they meet. Sort of like how the power rangers can only transform into Megazord when they physically get together. Or like the Pope who is only infallible when he makes a papal decree.

  There are rules to these things you know.
• 
  7

  Last night earthquake

  by Mandrake in

  1. social
  2. current

  last night i was in my car returning to santiago from vina del mar (the seaside) and waiting the green light the 8.4 earthquake started!

  it lasted 2 minutes!!!

  some people were scared, most acted calmly... so that brings to my memory what was to be a jw in the most seismic country in the world!

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  Saintbertholdt

  I hope things normalize as soon as possible for you and your fellow Chileans.

  May your country and countrymen rise to any and all challenges.

  Kind regards