Saintbertholdt

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Posts by Saintbertholdt

• 
  73

  Everybody loves Raymond

  by Saintbertholdt in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

  the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

  by nature i am an iconoclast.

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  Saintbertholdt

  Hi John Aquila and all who have responded,

  John you asked about what could Franz have gained by making a power play. He already was on the governing body after all.

  My answer is as follows: Just before Rutherford died he split the power of the Watchtower into a triumvirate: Knorr was the head with administrative power, Franz got theology and Covington legal.

  By the late 60's Covington was a washed up drunk and so after Knorr died in 77 all power now concentrated in Franz. Interestingly Knorr died two years after the failed 75 prediction just like Russell did in 1916 after the 1914 failure (For comparison see William Miller). I don't mention Rutherford because he made a special plea with the 1941 prediction: 'Save me Jehovah I'm dying of cancer' (That man had no shame). However Frederick Franz was actually fully responsible for the 75 prediction and he ended up with the Kingdom.

  I would argue that Raymond wanted to split the power up again so that he would get theology. His reasoning I think would be something like this: Well uncle you really botched things up with 1975 didn't you? Isn't it time somebody (a younger man) took over that knew what Christianity was actually all about? You might have been good back in the day, but after Knorr gave us free reign on research, we're (me and Dunlap) every bit as good at theology as you ever were. As a matter of fact we've surpassed you.

  Frederick's response: Oh really?

  Footnote: After Raymond left Watchtower HQ who did he give an interview to? The NY Eagle who was the traditional press foe of the Watchtower in NY? No, Time magazine. Raymond, you sly dog you.
• 
  73

  Everybody loves Raymond

  by Saintbertholdt in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

  the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

  by nature i am an iconoclast.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Saintbertholdt

  Hi OnTheWayOut,

  I know this thread implies that Ray wasn't originally intent on helping people, but rather helping himself.
  

  No, what I'm saying is that he wanted to wake up JW's and help himself in the process. In other words his personal motive he hid from view.

  I agree with the rest of your post e.g. "if the G.B. wanted to sneak off...I would help them pack." except for "...he never created a following for himself." That is not true at all. He received thousands of pieces of correspondence and thank you letters, got invited to talks all over with the adulation which accompanies it and to this very day we all kneel at his statue. Well sometimes I take a wiz on statues.

  
  
• 
  73

  Everybody loves Raymond

  by Saintbertholdt in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

  the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

  by nature i am an iconoclast.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Saintbertholdt

  I had friends at Bethel that said he would mingle with the workers and discuss their personal matters and concerns with them. Ray seemed genuine in his concern for the boys at bethel and how they were doing (according to my friend), while other elites treated him (my friend) harshly.
  

  A man of the people for the people. Caesar was beloved too.

  I can't impute a takeover strategy to him or even impure motives...don't think it's in his personality.

  Why would he reformulate the Watchtower doctrine in line with conventional Christianity? This after the 1975 debacle. He omits any personal details of the conflict between him and his uncle to the point where it seems as if the post '77 Watchtower president was just one of the bunch. And that was not the case. Frederick was arrogant and self-important (if you listen to his talks) and had formulated most of the Watchtower doctrine from the late 1930s onward.

  Hell I actually don't know how to stick the dagger into Raymond Franz on this one... he just looked so kind and meek, and was so soft spoken.
• 
  42

  1975 all over again!!!

  by John Aquila in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  wt study edition jan. 2015.

  here is the bait:.

  as the number of kingdom proclaimers increases and as we near the end of this system of things, there is an urgent need for more facilities.

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  Saintbertholdt

  Sell your house and go volunteer at Wall--KILL The End is coming!!!!!
  

  Oh, and don't forget to bequeath your nest egg from the sale of your house to the organization when you die.
• 
  73

  Everybody loves Raymond

  by Saintbertholdt in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

  the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

  by nature i am an iconoclast.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Saintbertholdt

  They were definitely taking steps toward a kinder gentler organization before Ray and Ed Dunlap left.
  

  In Search of Christian Freedom is a continuation and reformulation of the James Book methinks.
• 
  73

  Everybody loves Raymond

  by Saintbertholdt in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

  the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

  by nature i am an iconoclast.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Saintbertholdt

  Out of the [pure] abundance of his heart St.B. speaks.

  I'm a selfish bastard.
• 
  73

  Everybody loves Raymond

  by Saintbertholdt in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

  the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

  by nature i am an iconoclast.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Saintbertholdt

  Hi Wasanelder Once,

  The stipend was hush money
  

  Damn straight. But also for a lifetime of service. If he accepted it the GB knew he would keep quiet. He would not have been DF'd and the shunning rules would never have been re-introduced. When he declined they knew what he was going to do next. The fact is he was not a 'Hannibal' who would quietly retire after defeat. He was now going to declare a new war using his pen.

  I get the sense from his book CoC and videos of him giving talks on YouTube in Europe that he was not in any way seeking status or prominence.
  

  True. On the other hand one could argue his bid for power failed so in defeat his narrative had to take a very particular slant. If you get 70+ corrections in one chapter of a new book of which you are the editor, this is a strong signal that you're altering doctrines and that you're challenging the status quo. And the status always wants to remain quo.
• 
  73

  Everybody loves Raymond

  by Saintbertholdt in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

  the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

  by nature i am an iconoclast.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Saintbertholdt

  Hi Steve,

  Franz did not only skirt around Greenlees, he skirted around Frederick as well. Why? There was much more going on between the two than he let on and he didn't want to expose too much of their internal politics.

  As I wrote to John Aquila, I don't want to push the Greenlees issue too hard because it has repercussions. I do want to give my thoughts on why I think he omitted Greenlees in this response post and then I'll let it go. I'll refer to this post, but don't want to comment on the Greenlees thing any further. In retrospect I should have left it out in the original post because it can just get ugly. Perhaps that's what Raymond thought :)

  You are right that if Franz outed Greenlees it would have lowered the integrity of the GB from politically minded men to the everyday sick and fucked up shit humanity has to deal with on a daily basis. It would have shown the GB for the clowns (copyright LostGeneration) that they are. I further contend that Franz would have been happy to remain a part of the Clownshow if his theological changes were implemented.

  But then again the argument is valid that the Greenlees accusations were possibly just accusations. But isn't that what everybody is on about today anyway? The way things are handled in sexual molestation cases. Why was this swept under the rug? Why did Franz not draw attention to the procedure unless he was fine with it?
• 
  73

  Everybody loves Raymond

  by Saintbertholdt in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

  the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

  by nature i am an iconoclast.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Saintbertholdt

  Ray's books had a tremendous effect on my thinking, and his way of writing, without the flaming apostate attitude I was led to believe I would find by WTBTS, impressed me greatly. However, I believe he knew what he was eventually going to do when he left if he could not make reforms from the inside.
  

  Thanks for the good insights.

  I will say CoC definitely had a positive effect on me.

  The motivation for this thread came from the way everybody came down on Vinman. Now he did not really provide any arguments for Ray being an 'idiot' so he got hammered. But the thread also showed the fact that Franz has in some ways obtained a demigod status in ex-JW circles.

  So I guess I want to peg him down a notch or two. Franz wanted to rule the world like everybody else, and he had personal selfish motivations. His supposed pure altruism was pure horse manure.
• 
  73

  Everybody loves Raymond

  by Saintbertholdt in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

  the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

  by nature i am an iconoclast.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Saintbertholdt

  "Also, and I may be wrong here, was not Leo Greenlees made to leave because he was gay - not a pederast."

  Possibly both. The threads on the forum say that the accusations were made by a boy. Decades later a (now grown) man by the name of Mark Palo made the accusation on video.