Posts by Saintbertholdt

27

Options for the EU? - A cartoon from the Lebanese Daily Star

by fulltimestudent in

Saintbertholdt

My two cents:

1. Greece should default on all its sovereign debt. No-one will want to lend the country any more money for about a decade but now Greece also has zero debt. These are both actually very good things.

2. Re-introduce the Drachma.

3. Calculate government expenditure for ten years, which includes pensions, government salaries, public works expenditure etc. Announce the printing of the needed funds for the first year at 100% of funds. Reduce the printing every year by 10% so that by year 10 Greece will be printing 0% additional currency for running the government side of the economy. This is done so that the currency deflates with calculated clockwork regularity over the next decade.

4. Announce that Greece will embark on a government policy of fiscal prudence in the 21st century. This means: "Spending less than you earn". Apologize to all debtors for defaulting and explain that Greece cannot accept any more bad debt and that if continued Greece would remain impoverished and effectively descend into a form of European slavery.

5. Ask the European union to keep good trade relations. If the European union are unwilling establish preferred trade relations with all the Mediterranean nations the were formerly part of the ancient historic Carthage. Also do the same with the BRICS nations. Drop all import and export tariffs for these countries.

6. ?

7. Profit

Footnotes:

Addressing president Obama's concerns: NATO existed before the Euro was implemented and can exist without it also. What is better? Defaulting on bad debt or accepting more debt to not pay it back anyway? Addressing European political concerns: Kicking the can down the road is just a convenience for short term political thinking.

..

But whats actually seems to be most probable: Greece will accept more debt, remain impoverished and will therefore certainly never recover. It can't pay the debt back, can't grow economically with this black cloud over it and will systemically drag down Europe with it over the next couple of decades. As long as current politicians don't have to deal with the actual fallout of the bad debt and risk their re-election campaigns this will continue indefinitely.

But this is nothing compared to the USA: 17 Trillion and counting... Where will it stop? Probably about 30 to 40 trillion over the next decade or so.

At some point in the future the markets have to recognize the inevitable: What the hell were we all thinking?

We did this. We should man up. Should our children pay for OUR fiscal imprudence? We're all credit crazy assholes and its ALL OUR fault.

16

A historic note on the amount of faithful witnesses in Germany

by Saintbertholdt in

what percentage of witnesses were actually faithful in germany after 1936?.

what i mean by the above question is what percentage of witnesses actually remained active?

(those who went to underground meetings/memorials and attempted field ministry).

Saintbertholdt

Hi OrphanCrow,

Thanks for the link.

There's another line of evidence that may shed some light on this:

From 1 April 1929 Watchtower: "The friends at Berlin have sold during the past twelve months nearly one million books and booklets, and that is more than were sold in all Germany through this colporteur work In the year 1923."

So they're comparing the 1923 numbers to 1929 indicating upsurges in numbers. And 1923 was still building up to the 1925 prophesy so they're effectively saying business is booming.

Now I think Garbe is getting his figures from Watchtowers of the period.

The 1 April 1932 Watchtower: "The wording of this resolution has been sent from this office to all the companies in Germany, which at the same time were informed that the Magdeburg company passed this resolution. Thereupon, until now, 509 companies of Germany, representing 17,000 friends, have written us that they have passed the same resolution."

I can see a growth of 3000 in one year considering the lowest point of the Great depression is still one year away. My guesswork: Now between 1933 and 35 I'm personally guestimating an additional 2000 based upon the reported memorial attendance of 1933.

16

A historic note on the amount of faithful witnesses in Germany

by Saintbertholdt in

what percentage of witnesses were actually faithful in germany after 1936?.

what i mean by the above question is what percentage of witnesses actually remained active?

(those who went to underground meetings/memorials and attempted field ministry).

Saintbertholdt

From Nathan Knorr. The book was a collaboration between Knorr and Cole. The book was presented as an "outside/independent" voice at the time it was published, without revealing that Cole was actually a Jehovah's Witness himself.

I have read parts of Cole's book. I was not aware Knorr had anything to do with it.

Like I said it just doesn't gel with the 1927 published numbers which are broken down by congregation.

I don't know how to square this circle :)

16

A historic note on the amount of faithful witnesses in Germany

by Saintbertholdt in

what percentage of witnesses were actually faithful in germany after 1936?.

what i mean by the above question is what percentage of witnesses actually remained active?

(those who went to underground meetings/memorials and attempted field ministry).

Saintbertholdt

Hi OrphanCrow,

I hope I'm no too tiring.

The numbers that the WTS claim as their own are padded with many Bible Students who did not follow the Rutherford/JW doctrine and who had already left to form groups such as "Free Bible Students Association". Those Bible Students who had broke away from the WTS would also have worn the purple triangle in the camps but they would not have considered themselves Jehovah's witnesses or part of the WTS.

You are correct that there were other organizations, among others also splinter groups like 'The friends of Truth'. But the questions I would ask is were the member numbers significant and would those who disagreed with the Tower not be ostracized by JW members in the camps? Would there not be some documentary evidence of this? Also if the Free Bible Students Association went back to Russell's teachings then military service would become a conscience issue again. Although undesirable some German bible students fought in the great war.

For a modern comparison: An organization like the Watchman. How many adherents do they really have? And like the older organizations they just end up doing Watchtower bashing. Friends of Truth did this specifically.

16

A historic note on the amount of faithful witnesses in Germany

by Saintbertholdt in

what percentage of witnesses were actually faithful in germany after 1936?.

what i mean by the above question is what percentage of witnesses actually remained active?

(those who went to underground meetings/memorials and attempted field ministry).

Saintbertholdt

Hi there Orhpancrow,

Marley Cole, in his book The New World Society, gives the figure for JWs in Germany in 1928 as 9,755. That number also originated from WTS records.

It does not seem plausible that the increase in Germany during the five years between 1928 and 1933 was over double. If the WTS numbers are to be believed, then you also have to believe that there were 12,245 Germans who converted during those 5 years - almost 2500 per year (using 22,000 as the number in 1933).

To address the reported 22 000 number in 1933.

Firstly are there numbers to support that value in the 1920's? (Before 1925 and the drop off?)

Yes. You can refer to Detlef Garbe Between Resistance and Martyrdom: Jehovah's Witnesses in the Third Reich – Page 47. Jehovah's Witnesses already numbered 20 000 in 1922.

So 1925 comes and goes and many in Germany are disappointed with new worlds no show and numbers decline. What happens between 1928 and 1933? The Great depression starts in earnest. Jehovah's Witness numbers always grow rapidly in times of uncertainty.

For comparable growth the Nazi party went from only 2.6% of the public vote in 1928 according to Encyclopaedia Britannica 2008 to a coalition MAJORITY in 1933! So I would argue that Watchtower growth in the face of German Fascism and the Great Depression is not just plausible but mandatory. Also as mentioned before the Watchtower is very particular in reporting accurate memorial attendance numbers. To fudge them would be something that I would find very hard to believe.

Finally I don't know where Marley Cole got the numbers because the 15 July 1927 Watchtower gives a breakdown of memorial attendance by individual congregations. The American and German numbers are comparable upon visual inspection. I have not tabulated the exact numbers but there's 15000+ attendees in Germany at least (it would seem), so I am puzzled by Cole's numbers.

16

A historic note on the amount of faithful witnesses in Germany

by Saintbertholdt in

what percentage of witnesses were actually faithful in germany after 1936?.

what i mean by the above question is what percentage of witnesses actually remained active?

(those who went to underground meetings/memorials and attempted field ministry).

Saintbertholdt

Hi Orphancrow,

Now either mass conversions occurred or the coast was now clear for inactive witnesses to return to the fold. Which is more plausible?Both are plausible. I think both reasons account for the increase. I don't see why it has to be one or the other.

Let me clarify why I think the bulk of the increase is due to a return of previously inactive JW's.

I have to admit that there are reports of Nazi soldiers becoming JW's. However I will also state that because those conversions were viewed as significant victories for the Watchtower those instances have been well reported. Could a person argue that the JW conduct and philosophy was so compelling that thousands of soldiers converted after the war? I guess you could perhaps make a case for a few hundred but even that figure would be quite optimistic.

So why would I submit that something else is happening between 1947 and 48?

I think the 1933 number of 22 000 is reasonable (based on the memorial figures and the reported adherents). Erich Frost reports the 1936 numbers. He may even have been inflating the actual numbers but he only gets to 7600.

So between 1935-45 approximately 14 400 witnesses evaporate. These are witnesses who support Paul Balzereits conciliatory tone and use the 1933 letter from overseer Martin Harbeck as argument to follow the Nazi ban. They still accept the theology though. After 1936 those inactive witnesses either have to fall in with the Nazi state or go to jail. The concentration camp numbers support that they remain inactive.

In 1946 the first numbers to emerge state that there are over 11 000 Witnesses in Germany. This aligns with the concentration camp numbers as many cannot return to their lands of origin yet. In 1947 the Witnesses increase to over 15 000. This can be explained by radio broadcasts that the witnesses are allowed to make which may convert many and call many who are inactive.

In 1947 Germany starts to return to some measure of civil society. Before that military law is still prime. In 1947 the first commercial airlines begin to operate where before only military aircraft are allowed. Men like Hoss who ran Auschwitz are prosecuted and executed which is a major indicator that a new free society will be born. Also in 1947 Knorr and Covington visit Germany. Now if you adhered to the Watchtower dogma in the 1930's but became inactive, these new unfolding events would allow you to return in safety. There were even reports that some camp survivors did not want people to attend JW meetings who had not suffered in the camps. The Watchtower reported that the accounts were false and on the contrary they made special efforts to welcome people back (well that's according to the Watchtower).

So my argument rests on the ideas that although there were converts from the military that it would not account for the massive increase in 47 to 48. Most probably the political climate allowed the inactive to become active again.

Now I can argue your point of view as well. Lets assume that of the 14 400 witnesses that adhere to the Nazi ban a significant percentage are male and between 18 and 45 years old. They are conscripted and join the military. After the war they now return to civil society and their former religion. It would not look good for the Tower to report that former witnesses who had joined the military are now back in the fold. This would not make for good watchtower or awake! material. What does make good reading is former SS camp soldiers converting because of the sterling example they saw within witness conduct etc.

So I could see your point of view, but only sort of. I may be wrong about my conclusions because I was not physically there to see the events for myself, however I think they are reasonably based on the figures and facts as I see them. Perhaps you have some other evidence to change my mind?

16

A historic note on the amount of faithful witnesses in Germany

by Saintbertholdt in

what percentage of witnesses were actually faithful in germany after 1936?.

what i mean by the above question is what percentage of witnesses actually remained active?

(those who went to underground meetings/memorials and attempted field ministry).

Saintbertholdt

Hi CalebinFloroda,

According to the Holocaust Museum (Washington DC) site: In the Nazi years, about 10,000 Witnesses, most of them of German nationality, were imprisoned in concentration camps. After 1939, small numbers of Witnesses from Austria, Belgium, Czechoslovakia, the Netherlands, Norway, and Poland (some of them refugees from Germany) were arrested and deported to Dachau, Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Sachsenhausen, Ravensbrück, Auschwitz, Mauthausen, and other concentration camps. An estimated 2,500 to 5,000 Witnesses died in the camps or prisons. More than 200 men were tried by the German War Court and executed for refusing military service.--Jehovah’s Witnesses: Wartime Persecution.

I can confidently state that Russian JW's were among the group. To clarify I consider the Ukraine as part of the Russian group because by 1940 it was partially annexed by the Soviet Union and for the most part Ukraine fought alongside the Soviets against the Nazis. After WW II it was incorporated into the Soviet Union) So why can I state that Russian JW's were in concentration camps?

Because in the 2003-2005 Swiss banking restitution which was done for Holocaust survivors, for the first time Central European and Russian JW's were recognized and compensated. The numbers compensated break down as follows:

Croatia 3
Hungary 12
Moldova 186
Poland 109
Romania 243
Russian Federation 23
Ukraine 1 300

Total 1 876

16

A historic note on the amount of faithful witnesses in Germany

by Saintbertholdt in

what percentage of witnesses were actually faithful in germany after 1936?.

what i mean by the above question is what percentage of witnesses actually remained active?

(those who went to underground meetings/memorials and attempted field ministry).

Saintbertholdt

Hi Orphancrow,

The historical numbers that the WTS throws around about JWs in Germany during WW2 are far from accurate.Factors that the WTS fails to account for: - the WT was a fragmented religion leading up to, and including, WW2. There was a major split in the German WT around 1925 that saw Conrad Binkele leave the WTS and continue to support the "Earnest Bible Students". Many of the numbers that the WTS claim as their own were actually "Bible Students" who did not follow the WTS - they werenot JWs who followed the WTS.

I'll admit the 22 000 may be overblown by about 2 000. Penton 2004 (Jehovah's Witnesses and the Third Reich: Sectarian Politics Under Persecution) reports 20 000 witnesses in 1933 which aligns well with the memorial attendance (25 000) which is always a greater figure but is also a good indicator of approximate adherents. The Watchtower has historically been pedantic about the memorial figures. I took the figure of 20 000 and 25 000 and took an average and then rounded it down. The reason being because I wanted a reasonable but round figure. I cannot be exactly certain about 22 000 but I suspect its accurate because up until 1935 there was still active preaching being done which would have meant an increase in numbers. After 1935 when the National Defense act came to pass all that changed and so did the Nazi persecution methods.

- the purple triangle that the JWs claim as being exclusively their own was also wore by other prisoners even though the JWs/Bible Students made up the majority of the purple triangles.From the book Persecution and Resistance of Jehovah's Witnesses During the Nazi Regime by Hans Hesse: pg 72 - the purple triangles were assigned 1937/8 The Purple Triangle designated the following prisoner groups: - Bible Students - Seventh Day Adventists - Baptists - pacifists - possibly New Apostolic community

Well these other groups accounted for less than 1% of the Bibleforce purple triangle group.

Johannes S. Wrobel, Jehovah’s Witnesses in National Socialist Concentration Camps, 1933 – 45, Religion, State & Society, Vol. 34, No. 2, June 2006, pp. 89-125 "The concentration camp prisoner category ‘Bible Student’ at times apparently included a few members from small Bible Student splinter groups, as well as adherents of other religious groups which played only a secondary role during the time of the National Socialist regime, such as Adventists, Baptists and the New Apostolic community (Garbe 1999, pp. 82, 406; Zeiger, 2001, p. 72). Since their numbers in the camps were quite small compared with the total number of Jehovah’s Witness prisoners, I shall not consider them separately in this article. Historian Antje Zeiger (2001, p. 88) writes about Sachsenhausen camp: ‘In May 1938, every tenth prisoner was a Jehovah’s Witness. Less than one percent of the Witnesses included other religious nonconformists (Adventists, Baptists, pacifists), who were placed in the same prisoner classification.’"

Included in the the number of JWs in Germany after the war would be all the SS officers and guards who converted to the JW religion.

I strongly disagree. Between 1947 and 48 there was an increase from just over 15 000 to just over 29 000 witnesses in ONE year. In 47/48 marks the return of civilian services like commercial airlines etc. and the Nuremberg trials are in full swing. Now either mass conversions occurred or the coast was now clear for inactive witnesses to return to the fold. Which is more plausible?

Greetings

16

A funny little diplomatic cable regarding the Malawi atrocities against JW's in 1975

by Saintbertholdt in

no doubt that atrocities were perpetrated against jehovah's witnesses in 1972-73.. but what about the reports in 1975?.

here is an excerpt from a diplomatic cable sent to the us secretary of state in 1977.. the cable was released/declassified in 2009.. .... re jehovah's witnesses, why do we go back to the.

events of 197273?

Saintbertholdt

No doubt that atrocities were perpetrated against Jehovah's Witnesses in 1972-73.

But what about the reports in 1975?

Here is an excerpt from a diplomatic cable sent to the US secretary of State in 1977.

The cable was released/declassified in 2009.

...

RE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES, WHY DO WE GO BACK TO THE

EVENTS OF 1972‐73? THE EVIDENCE SUGGESTS, AND WE HAVE SO

REPORTED, THAT IN 1975 JW'S WERE NOT BEATEN OR OTHERWISE

PHYSICALLY PERSECUTED. THE LAWYER HERE WHO WENT TO BAT

FOR THE JW'S TO TRY TO GET MORE LENIENT TREATMENT FOR THEM

TOLD ME ON NO 12, 1977, AND I SO REPORTED IN MEMCON SENT

TO DESK, HE BELIEVED THE ATROCITY STORIES PUT OUT BY THE

JW'S IN 1975 WERE RE‐DOS OF 1972‐73 EVENTS; THAT HE FOUND

THE JW'S QUITE CAPABLE OF FALSIFICATIONS AND MISSTATEMENTS

IN FURTHERANCE OF THEIR CAUSE. IN TALKS I HAD THIS WEEK

WITH MISSIONARIES INMZUZU AND MZIMBA NONE WAS AWARE OF

ANY ATROCITIES IN 1975.

https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/1977LILONG02065_c.html

12

There is no God.

by nicolaou in

it had been raining and i could smell the pine trees nearby.

god wasn't necessary.

the clouds cleared and the sunlight blazing from above paid out a bonus in the puddles at my feet.

Saintbertholdt

GOD EXISTS!

Its Google, and she will kill us all.