I have made no personal attacks. I am merely exposing the root of the tree of apostate arguments online. I just dont know why he refuses to defend himself. Someone who invests so much time into researching this information wont even defend his own writings.
Recovery
JoinedPosts by Recovery
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278
Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd
by Recovery injwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.
i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.
1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.
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278
Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd
by Recovery injwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.
i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.
1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.
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Recovery
Yes I believe the earth will last forever.
Yes my post about evolution was sarcasm (I actually have an extensive background with evolution) but I thought that was pretty obvious.
Of course I gave yiu a poor answer. All yiu want to do is argue over words and WT quotes. I do not take the WT as an infallible guide that will never contain errors, logical fallacies or even human opinions. Why? Because that is what imperfect humans do. Thank God we dont have a substantial collection of noninspired Christian writings because scholars and atheists alike would be doing what you are doing.
So jwfacts will yiu address the other points I made or do you want to continue the diversionary tactics.
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This must be true because nothing else fits
by biometrics inso elder x came over the other day to convince me about why jehovah's witnesses have 1914 correct.
i wrote about this some time ago, but the elder never returned.
he caught me off-guard, and unprepared.. he went through the reasoning book (p95), and pointed out all the reaons (day for a year, daniel, 360 days, 2520 ...).
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Recovery
Because it is made up of imperfect men. Look at the apostles. Read 1 Corinthians and Peters letters and Revelation 2 and 3 and see how many flaws God people had.
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278
Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd
by Recovery injwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.
i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.
1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.
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Recovery
Oh yes. Whales evolved from squirrels and monkeys who then jumped into the ocean for some unknown reason and then developed into whales. And by the way your uncle is a monkey, literally.
Wow jwfacts. i expected more from you. You seem to be more interested in dabbling over words than scriptures. We cant change settings because John didnt say we did. All we can go by is what John wrote down and he is very specific when he changes settings. Your argument about the four corners of the earth is weak and a poor rebuttal.
Jehovah did not lie about anything. If there were any misnomers, it was mans error, not his. Now yiu still have 5 more posts to address.
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278
Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd
by Recovery injwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.
i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.
1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.
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Recovery
No actually the temple is not always in heaven.
1 Corinthians 3:16 Do YOU not know that YOU people are God’s temple, and that the spirit of God dwells in YOU? 17 If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] YOU people are.
And what do you know, naos is used there. Guess that arguments falls flat on its face.
No more cut and paste rhetoric from ex JW websites. They aren't well researched.
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36
This must be true because nothing else fits
by biometrics inso elder x came over the other day to convince me about why jehovah's witnesses have 1914 correct.
i wrote about this some time ago, but the elder never returned.
he caught me off-guard, and unprepared.. he went through the reasoning book (p95), and pointed out all the reaons (day for a year, daniel, 360 days, 2520 ...).
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Recovery
Please remember where Christ is.
2 Corinthians 5:20 "We are therefore ambassadors substituting for Christ, as though God were making entreaty through us. As substitutes for Christ we beg: “Become reconciled to God.”
Ephesians 3:10 "[This was] to the end that now to the governments and the authorities in the heavenly places there might be made known through the congregation the greatly diversified wisdom of God, 11 according to the eternal purpose that he formed in connection with the Christ, Jesus our Lord"
Colossians 1:17, 18 " Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation."
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278
Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd
by Recovery injwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.
i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.
1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.
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Recovery
I've yet to cut and paste from a single WT. But jwfacts, tootiredtocare, and many posters in this discussion have copied and pasted on several occassions.
So as I go to sleep, I want jwfacts to remember the points he has yet to successfully address:
1. The logical fallacy/double standard displayed when using the WT in your argument
2. The use of the greek words that form the phrase "great crowd" being ambiguous and used in numerous circumstances, and thus not making an automatic connection of Revelation 7 and 19
3. The ten common terms listed really not being that common at all.
4. The context and setting from the very beginning of Revelation 7 and how there is no change in setting. (tried to address but did so erroneously with a strawman of my argument)
5. How God will spread his tent and dwell with those who are already residing in heaven, before his throne and in his temple.
And here's just one more for good measure.
6. Why does Revelation 7 say the immortal, anointed heavenly great crowd "will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat.." and "the Lamb...will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.” Surely the immortal do not need to be guided to the fountains of waters of life. Tears, hunger, thirst, and scorching heat certainly do not occur to the immortal in heaven. So why does Revelation use these terms?
I await the cut and paste Biblical interpretation by Ray Franz and maybe a random JWN poster.
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278
Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd
by Recovery injwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.
i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.
1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.
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Recovery
The Lamb is on the earth (after the things mentioned in Revelation 7 and its parallel vision in 21) take place. I'm sure you will ask for proof. In short, Revelation 21 is a vision of the new heaven and earth. Chapter 22 is a continuation of that vision.
Notice what verse 1 says "And he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of its broad way. And on this side of the river and on that side [there were] trees of life producing twelve crops of fruit, yielding their fruits each month. And the leaves of the trees [were] for the curing of the nations."
The anointed are immortal and cured the moment they are sealed and go into heaven. Now ask yourself and use your thinking cap: Does this verse sound like it's talking about the earth and people who already immortal? hmm. If the water is flowing out from the throne of God and the Lamb, and it can't possibly be talking about heaven, where is the throne located? And thus, where is the Lamb? I hope I answered your question.
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278
Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd
by Recovery injwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.
i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.
1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.
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Recovery
Jwfacts clearly did not understand the argument: To use your terminology and reasoning, notice that John does not say 'I saw' or 'I was transferred into heaven'. By your reasoning, the elders must be on earth too, which is not what your religion teaches.
No my reasoning was regarding the specificity of the context and setting of the vision. We cannot change settings unless we have ample reason to. Such as John saying 'And I saw in heaven...and look!'. That would be entirely different. I am not saying that just because John does not say he was transferred into heaven every single time that means its taking place on the earth. I am not saying that just because John does not say 'he saw' that means that something is not taking place in heaven.
John emphasizes the earth. Doesn't make a transition into heaven whatsoever. Ray Franz (and thus jwfacts - his professional copy and paster) says otherwise.
Who will you believe?
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278
Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd
by Recovery injwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.
i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.
1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.
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Recovery
In verse 13 John does not see the elders. He merely says 'one of the elders said to me'. This is the same thing when he said: 'And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand.."
You are not understanding my line of reasoning, so I will explain it to you in the simplest terms I know how.
Revelation 7 is talking about the earth. It cannot be talking about heaven because the vision never switches gears into heaven. The setting never changes. The central theme of the earth never changes. It is often used as proof that this vision is about heaven because it mentions the 144,000 but John merely says 'he heard' the sealing, not that he saw the sealing. That is my point.