Posts by Recovery

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

Recovery

AnnoMoly: You totally missed the point I was trying to make - "whatever the source, the effect was the same - a man was magically/miraculously cured." To the onlookers who didn't believe Jesus was from God, it was sorcery. To those who did believe Jesus was from God, it was a miracle. Each side witnessed exactly the same supernatural event but attributed its origin differently. Even though Jesus' 'magic' was from God, others viewed it as demonic.

AnnOMoly, you are making the terrible mistake of many in this thread of arguing from the viewpoint of onlookers. We are not allowing the 'onlookers' to define what is magic for us, anymore than we would allow the pagan idol worshippers to define who/what is 'God' for us. That is a fallacious and weak argument, because of course those who believe in and practice sorcery, witchcraft, and other forms of spiritism would only view such a thing as magic as there is no distinction from their standpoint.

But Jehovah makes a distinction from his standpoint. And regardless of how many circles people try to argue around regarding what others would have viewed as magic, it is his definition and his distinction that holds supreme and that should serve as the *CLEAR* separator between the two, should it not?

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

Recovery

Now there are those that use the argument that David is said to have studied omens, magic, and as well as Daniel when he was educated in the practices of the Babylonians. But notice the distinction that has to be made when one is arguing from this viewpoint. Daniel and David are thought to have studied, not practiced such things. Jehovah does not say 'YOU must not study magic or omens'. He says 'YOU must not practice it.'

Now here's an illustration. Imagine that your license as an attorney has been suspended temporarily and you are ordered by the district attorney to not practice any form of law, as your license is now suspended. Would you violate the law if you study your old college law books, examine precedent court cases, and learn new techniques by watching other lawyers present their cases? Of course not. You were instructed to not practice law.

The illustration/point is completely moot because there are many Jehovah's Witnesses who are doctors and who have prominent jobs in the medical field. To become a doctor, an extensive background is needed in Biology. And what does a great portion of biological instruction consist of? Evolution. So is it wrong for JW's to go to schools where they will have to learn about evolution (something contrary to the Bible)? Of course not. The point of Daniel and David learning magic is clearly fallacious and the true 'weak argument' as all can now see.

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

Recovery

Jwfacts said: In actual fact, they are not just similar, but almost identical. The definition of magic includes that it comes from supernatural sources. Both the Priest Aaron and the priests of Pharoah performed their miracles by calling on supernatural sources. That should be the end of the discussion, but you are like a dog with a bone. You argue very much like the poster Renee. Is it you? It is hard to tell whether so many JWs on here sound the same because they have been dumbed down by constant parrotting of Watchtower indoctrination, or it is just the same person with a lot of aliases.

When a person's argument begins to crumble they result to the same rhetorical, repeated, stereotypical, 'you're just a dumb JW' arguments. Apparently Jwfacts did not read the definition CLOSELY. "Two things that APPEAR TO BE SIMILAR (WHICH MEANS THEY MIGHT BE SIMILAR: I.E. THE ROD TURNING INTO A SNAKE) but DIFFERENT in the manner INVOKED".

Now jwfacts tries to gloss over this definition because it completely destroys the argument that magic= miracles. He tries to use the fact that both stem from 'supernatural' sources as a means to HARMONIZE them as essentially the same thing. But the thesarus does not do this. The Bible does not do this. And what makes the difference in the manner that they are invoked is the SUPERNATURAL SOURCE. One is invoked by a supernatural force from God, the other is invoked by a supernatural force of a completely different sort.That is why one is associated with devilry, witchery, sorcery, voodooism, and the other is associated with marvels, wonders, incredible sights.

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

Recovery

After looking up the word magic a thesarus we find the following associated synonyms:bewitchery, bewitchment, conjuring, devilry (or deviltry) , diablerie, enchantment, ensorcellment, mojo, necromancy, sorcery, thaumaturgy, voodooism, witchcraft, witchery, wizardry

Now logically if two words can be used interchangeably and they have the same meaning, you should likewise find *SIMILAR* synonyms when you look up each word. But such an occurrence cannot be found with the words 'magic' and 'miracle'.

After looking up the word miracle in a thesarus we find the following associated synonyms: caution, flash, marvel, wonder, phenomenon, portent, prodigy, sensation, splendor

In case there was any doubt left about the distinction God Almighty makes between magic and miracles, this *CLEARLY* makes a distinction between the two. From Jehovah's own words, to the etymology, to the thesarus.

So I leave onlookers with the question: Who really has the 'weak, unconvincing arguments'? Is it me? Or is it jwfacts? Who has shown you the facts from respected source after respected source and who has simply interpreted their own viewpoint of what consistutes magic? Some are saying well praying is a form of casting a spell. And things of that sort. But Jehovah did not consider such things (a part of worship to him) magic or spiritism. So y ou can take the distorted definition of these people, or you can take Almighty God's definition.

The ball is in your court, jwfacts.

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

Recovery

To sum up closing arguments:

Jehovah says "YOU must not look for omens, and YOU must not practice magic." (Lev 19:26)

Jwfacts says: All the people in the Bible DID practice magic and there was no distinction between the practice of magic and miracles performed of God, directly contradicting God's word.

Etymological origins of magic: Middle English magique, from Middle French, from Latin magice, from Greek magike, feminine of magikosMagian, magical, from magos magus, sorcerer , of Iranian origin; akin to Old Persian maguš sorcerer

Etymological origins of miracle: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin miraculum, from Latin, a wonder, marvel, from mirarito wonder at

20

The Conscious Universe: Parts and Wholes in Physical Reality, Google books

by frankiespeakin in

.

google books:.

http://books.google.com/books?id=o12s37atopqc&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_atb#v=onepage&q&f=false.

Recovery

Wow I have never seen an ebook so expensive. Especially considering it was published 12 years ago. Must be pretty interesting, eh?

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

Recovery

I was thinking about responding to certain points but then I again I doubt anyone is still paying attention 8 days later.

278

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery in

jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

Recovery

So what exactly is the question? The disharmony between the timeline evolutionary developmental theory of sea creatures and the order described in Genesis?

Yes it was disrespectful. For that I apologize. I'm going to refrain from the use of sarcasm in my responses from now as it seems to set a lot of people off.

278

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery in

jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

Recovery

Are JWs supposed to care what Debuhn says? Why dont you quote 90% of mainstream scholars who believe in some version of the pagan Trinity doctrine. Can jwfacts and endofmysteries please point out which posts addressed my four questions, thanks.

Jgnats My response wasnt serious because King Solomons assertion wasnt completely accurate.

278

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery in

jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

Recovery

Ok jwfacts and several others claim they have addressed my four questions. I will go back to the very beginning of this thread and wade thru all the muck to see if I can find these answers. But I won't hold my breath.