Rather Be in hades I will offer the same advice to you. Some things in the Bible may be hard to understand or even seem irrational/impossible. But please brush up on Bible prophecy. You will not find a more accurate source than the WT Publications but since you don't seem to be a fan of the WT, simply research them yourself. I remember this quote by heart. "Bible prophecies.....are so innumerable so as to make accidental fulfillment almost impossible." Especially regarding Cyrus, Egypt, Assyria, Rome, Greece, Jerusalem on several occassions, and the United Nations/Nebuchadnezzar. Look at how many times critics ridiculed the Bible and said it was false and it proved them wrong. Look at how ahead of its time and how scientifically accurate the creation account is, going in the same basic order as scientists say.
Recovery
JoinedPosts by Recovery
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278
Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd
by Recovery injwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.
i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.
1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.
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278
Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd
by Recovery injwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.
i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.
1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.
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Recovery
If we apply this literally as you are by inference than where does that leave the gentiles?
Just because some things in the vision are interpreted as literal, does not mean the entire vision has to be.
People that are brought to heaven are brought from where? wait for it, wait for it...the earth, so of course the context is the earth when it's speaking of those who are being taken to heaven!
You are not helping anyone's case. Your saying the setting is the earth. Well the vision describes the great crowd as coming out of the great tribulation and worshipping before the Lamb and in the Temple on the earth. You are proving my point.
no one could count [not 144k?!?!], from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb [Funny it doesn't say they are on the earth does it?!?!].
As you've already admitted for us, the setting is the earth. That is where everything is taking place. Now you are arguing that the scripture doesn't say they are on earth. Which is it?
[So if some annointed have died post 1918 and been ressurected to heaven as the wt$ dogma would have you believe how is this criteria fullfilled?
How is the criteria of the great crowd coming out of the tribulation fulfilled? I didn't think that needed an explanation.
There is so many ways this text could be intepreted and spun to suit any religious dogma. Your assertions haven't proven a thing.
Of course. I am well aware of many Biblical interpretations regarding Revelation and especially this chapter. However, obviously all can't be correct. And obviously, when we look at the facts, Jwfacts' cut and paste of Ray Franz rhetoric and JWN's regurgitated arguments can't be correct neither.
So will Jwfacts answer the question: What is the setting of Revelation 7?
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Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd
by Recovery injwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.
i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.
1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.
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Recovery
I know they were signs. I know John was not literally transferred into heaven when he saw his visions. I know these were dreams. Instead of arguing about a strawman and misinterpreting what I said, you offered no response to the context and setting so clearly and vividly described by John himself.
Notice how John always makes it very clear for us what he is seeing:
Revelation 8:1 "And when he opened the seventh seal, a silence occurred in heaven for about a half hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels that stand before God, and seven trumpets were given them."
Easy.
Setting: heaven.
Revelation 11:1 "And a reed like a rod was given me as he said: “Get up and measure the temple [sanctuary] of God and the altar and those worshiping in it. "
Easy.
Setting: the temple
Revelation 12:1 "And a great sign was seen in heaven, a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon was beneath her feet, and on her head was a crown of twelve stars, 2 and she was pregnant."
Easy.
Setting: heaven
Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more"
Easy.
Setting: the new heaven and earth.
Now Jwfacts will you please kindly answer this question for us: What is the setting of Revelation 7?
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This must be true because nothing else fits
by biometrics inso elder x came over the other day to convince me about why jehovah's witnesses have 1914 correct.
i wrote about this some time ago, but the elder never returned.
he caught me off-guard, and unprepared.. he went through the reasoning book (p95), and pointed out all the reaons (day for a year, daniel, 360 days, 2520 ...).
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Recovery
Enjoy your christian fellowship and help from the elders while you still can. Apostates are not going to lead you anywhere but out of the organization and into dried, muddied, waters. The organization has many flaws, but don't allow yourself to be mislead out of it so easily.
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278
Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd
by Recovery injwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.
i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.
1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.
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Recovery
Oh yeah and just for the record, I didn't cut and paste that from a JW apologist book. I actually did my own research and did my own examination.
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278
Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd
by Recovery injwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.
i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.
1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.
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Recovery
Here's the information I presented:
Revelation 7:1-3 "After this I saw four angels standing upon the four corners OF THE EARTH, holding tight the four winds OF THE EARTH, that no wind might blow UPON THE EARTH or UPON THE SEA or UPON ANY TREE 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of [the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm THE EARTH and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm THE EARTH or THE SEA OR THE TREES, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”
It is obvious to anyone without biased or preconceived interpretations that the emphasis in this vision is on the earth. The vision is centered around the earth and what will happen to it and those on it. Notice that it says these four winds will be released AFTER the 144,000 are sealed. Continuing..
Revelation 7:4 "And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel.."
Now this is significant. Notice that John does not say 'I saw' or 'I was transferred into heaven' but he simply says 'I heard'. There is no change in setting. The focus and the center of the vision can still be placed on the earth. John simply records the numbers that he hears and continues describing what he sees. Please note this simple, yet vital distinction.
Question: How is the great crowd in heaven when the setting is the earth?
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Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd
by Recovery injwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.
i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.
1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.
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Recovery
Okay okay okay okay rather be in hades. We get it. The Bible is false and just a book of myths/lies. I will commence my weeping and groaning as I patiently wait for jwfacts to answer just one simple question.
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278
Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd
by Recovery injwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.
i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.
1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.
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Recovery
4 pages and still no rebuttal by jwfacts or any of the other members of this forum.
I am quite satisfied with the results. You are helping prove to lurking JW's that you are not only just a mere cut and paste of what others say, but that you can't substantiate the very arguments that are almost universally used by ex-JW's. And here I was thinking I was going to need to write a post about naos and the temple. But that is not even necessary as so many basic arguments have yet to be addressed. Here's just one for you, jwfacts. Can you address just this one?
1. The context and setting of Revelation 7, that never changed from earth to heaven.
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278
Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd
by Recovery injwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.
i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.
1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.
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278
Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd
by Recovery injwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.
i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.
1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.
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Recovery
Jwfacts to me (yesterday): " Much of the information at jwfacts.com is from the research of people far more gifted then me, and comes from JWN. The arguments on my site are there because they are the ones that ex-JWs use, not the other way around."
Jwfacts today: " BTW, that list you are discussing is from Franz, who came to believe that the great crowd is in heaven.. Why do you think anyone is going to take your arguments seriously, when you are only regurgitating what you are told, and what any JW or exJW has been told for years."
So I return the question to you Jwfacts: " Why do you think anyone is going to take your arguments seriously, when you are only regurgitating what you are told, and what any JW or exJW has been told for years."
Maybe you have been reading the Bible too much Jwfacts. You are starting to contradict yourself. (for those without a sense of humor, this is sarcasm)
Still waiting on you to offer something of substance besides diversionary questions.