Posts by konceptual99

15

GB And Change: Lessons From Soviet History

by metatron in

jw
friends

i read an interesting book - "spymaster" by tennent bagley in which he offers a biography of a senior consultant to the kgb, based on long interviews with a man who was once his enemy (sergey kundrashev).

i believe the book proves some powerful insights into the workings of secretive totalitarian cults.. there are many parallels between the two organizations: they were both born out of 1914 events, they addressed each other as comrade/brother, they encouraged youth to become "pioneers/red pioneers", they were started as very individualistic (revolutionaries) -were then taken over and structured by an amoral thug-dictator (stalin/rutherford) , worshipped the "party/organization", emphasized collective thought over the individual, and ended up ruled by an elderly politboro/governing body - who were forced to contend with disruptive change.. .

but here's where the similarities get interesting:.

konceptual99

True, there is a good number of defectors however they are in one of three camps:

- outside the org and vocal. These are viewed as hideous apostates and avoided like the plague

- outside the org and quiet. These are faders, df'ed/da'ed ones with no obvious axe to grind etc. They have little to no influence on those inside.

- inside the org and quiet. These are ones like me - fading, dissenters and "fifth column". We can't make much noise otherwise we very quickly get put outside the org. Sure, we can try and take a few down with us but once exposed we simply become lumped in with all the other apostates.

My point is that no matter how many people really feel it's a waste of time and wish they could do less, stop etc. no one really knows. In the old eastern bloc the dissenters eventually got together and changed things. As we have both alluded to, the police and army did nothing.

In WT land you cannot be a dissenter. The apostate badge is one easily applied, difficult to shake and made of dog shite. It's a badge of dishonour to anyone embedded in the WT loyalty regime. It will never be seen as something symbolising reform, inclusiveness and good sense. The "police and army" - the elders - will never avoid action against dissenters and give them tacit support. This is not a world power concerned about compromise, pragmatism and relations with other countries. This is a group of deluded men who think they are right and cannot be wrong.

Sure there might be catalysts for change and perhaps even the eventual collapse of the WTS but I don't see a grass roots "rebellion" ever gaining traction.

15

GB And Change: Lessons From Soviet History

by metatron in

jw
friends

i read an interesting book - "spymaster" by tennent bagley in which he offers a biography of a senior consultant to the kgb, based on long interviews with a man who was once his enemy (sergey kundrashev).

i believe the book proves some powerful insights into the workings of secretive totalitarian cults.. there are many parallels between the two organizations: they were both born out of 1914 events, they addressed each other as comrade/brother, they encouraged youth to become "pioneers/red pioneers", they were started as very individualistic (revolutionaries) -were then taken over and structured by an amoral thug-dictator (stalin/rutherford) , worshipped the "party/organization", emphasized collective thought over the individual, and ended up ruled by an elderly politboro/governing body - who were forced to contend with disruptive change.. .

but here's where the similarities get interesting:.

konceptual99

Interesting parellels. One point that is different however is that the Soviet setup had to contend with growing discontent and rebellion at the grass roots level. East Germany and Poland had rejected their communist masters with large numbers of people on the streets and little push back from the army and police.

The Soviets knew they had to do something that would allow control to be maintained and open rebellion prevented.

The difference with the GB and JWs in general is that there is no open rebellion. There is no route for authorised or even tolerated criticism. It's "our way or the highway". Dissenters are not seen, most importantly, by their peers as heros of the rank and file but as wicked, apostate rebels who deserve everything they get.

I see no burning need for change from the top down. Sure, they will have some concerns about money and the shedding of numbers in the more developed nations but they have plenty in the bank, assets to be realised, plenty more people coming in from developing nations and no need to take into the account the opinion of a kind of disgruntled underclass of intelligentsia.

22

Meeting after meeeting

by molybdenum in

i just got information that there is going to be a short 10 min meeting.

with elders and ms after the first meeting of the week during the co visit.. this is in addition to the usual elders/ms meeting.. it might just be for my congregation, but is this something new?.

i wonder why.. .

konceptual99

http://dilbert.com/dyn/str_strip/000000000/00000000/0000000/000000/10000/8000/300/18319/18319.strip.gif

3

Have the DO changes been announced in the congregations yet?

by Fencing in

i believe the renaming of the district conventions has already been officially announced, correct?

how about this latest change regarding dos?.

konceptual99

It is being read at out at the earliest opportunity from last Thursday.

28

Profiling of an apostate

by joe134cd in

jw
friends

i must admit when i was in, the idea i had of an apostate, was an angry bitter person who would picket out side a convention.

i was looking on jwservey and found on the respondents to a servey that 54% were either active members or fading members.

this made me wonder is the organisation underestimating the extent of apostasy.

konceptual99

Is the 1980s letter still valid since it's not quite the same sense that you get from the current Shepherd book?

Of course we are all aware of the loyalty question but is that actually a tactic that still has specific instruction and sanction from the society?

Are there current BOE letters or KM School instructions that would instruct newer elders to discount active spreading of alternative views and DF someone as an apostate for simply holding views contary to the F&DS?

9

1000 Posts

by konceptual99 in

jw
friends

wow!

i've just realised i've reached 1000 posts on the board.. this is a personal milestone and so i think i should take a moment to reflect on the last 18 plus months.. in that time i have completely lost my faith in bible, in jw doctrine and in any kind of hope for a new world as described by the gb and believed by me for 40+ years.

i have stepped down as a ministerial servant after 20 years.

konceptual99

Ha! Hadn't thought of it like that NY44M! Good point. Now where's my JWN report slip??

9

1000 Posts

by konceptual99 in

jw
friends

wow!

i've just realised i've reached 1000 posts on the board.. this is a personal milestone and so i think i should take a moment to reflect on the last 18 plus months.. in that time i have completely lost my faith in bible, in jw doctrine and in any kind of hope for a new world as described by the gb and believed by me for 40+ years.

i have stepped down as a ministerial servant after 20 years.

konceptual99

WOW! I've just realised I've reached 1000 posts on the board.

This is a personal milestone and so I think I should take a moment to reflect on the last 18 plus months.

In that time I have completely lost my faith in Bible, in JW doctrine and in any kind of hope for a New World as described by the GB and believed by me for 40+ years. I have stepped down as a ministerial servant after 20 years. I have pretty much stopped my ministry, miss a good proportion of meetings and am slowly working on my family to help them come out of this organisation.

I have read more and studied more about the religion I was brought up in over the past year and half than I ever did in all the years of my youth and upwards. I have changed my opinion on evolution and the import of science to human progression and mankinds' future.

Key to this has been this board. The ability to comment freely, ask questions and express whatever opinion I have has been invaluable and incredibly cathartic. I have to thank Simon for bringing this board about and many of the key posters that have been here years. I have been informed by sites like jwfacts, jwsurvey, freeminds, jwsurvey etc. but it is here that I have been able to engage with others, talk to ones and express my feelings when it is impossible to do so to anyone else.

Thank you Simon, cantleave, Terry, Datadog, besty, Kate, winstonsmith, cedars, jwfacts, ameliaashton, blondie, smiddy, LouBelle, raypublisher, WTWizard, outlaw, Billy the ex, punkofnice, wizzstick, truthseeker, annomaly, st george, leavingwt, 00DAD, atlantis, cofty, leolaia, tech49, confusedandalone, minimus, 88JM and many other posters who have informed, entertained, encouraged, supported, advised and helped me so far.

This is a fantastic and necessary resource that ranks as one of the top five places any one considering their position as a JW should make a regular point of contact.

Thank you all for being here.

62

Any active jws, without using the phrase "God must have..." Can you prove that Noah's ark actually happened

by DuvanMuvan in

i have a number of problems with the noah's ark story that i could never find the answer to in the bible and so i thought i could ask here:.

1.how did noah get animals that are indigenous to areas he could not get to (e,g penguins, koalas, kangaroos, moose etc) .

2.the flood supposedly happened around 4000 years ago but there is evidence of civilisation dating back a lot further.

konceptual99

It didn't put anyone off. It just cannot be answered without at least one "god dunnit".

28

Profiling of an apostate

by joe134cd in

jw
friends

i must admit when i was in, the idea i had of an apostate, was an angry bitter person who would picket out side a convention.

i was looking on jwservey and found on the respondents to a servey that 54% were either active members or fading members.

this made me wonder is the organisation underestimating the extent of apostasy.

konceptual99

True enough BluesBro but if they can get any evidence of things like celebrating birthdays or Christmas then you are toast regardless of how privately these things are done. If you have any conversations about creation, the flood, prophecy, 607 etc., no matter how vague and non confrontational, then you run the risk of being shopped and having to face the loyalty question.

I think it is possible to have conversations when you are still trusted but once you fade then any such conversations are far more likely to trigger the aposate response in a dub.

I would agree however that if you quietly fade and don't rock the boat then there is a reasonable chance you will be left alone. Until they think they have something on you that is....

55

What Ailed Those Pilots ... ?

by snowbird in

the pilots and crew of the missing plane, was something wrong with all of them?.

sylvia.

konceptual99

Possible debris spotted west of Oz....